seriously need advice

[carolyn]

John (6) has been with the same teacher for the past 3 years. He enjoys her class, but absolutely hates getting ready and going to school. Once he is there he is fine, but getting him there is a pain-I have to pretty much forcibly dress him and then practically drag him out to the car. He resists going most anywhere- but school is the worst. I know that part of the problem is the lack of routine in the morning-he goes to school in the afternoon and we tend to bum around all morning- It's like I know what we need to change but have no idea how to change. I am not a routine person by nature. I just go with the flow- I stay at home and do not really have a weekly routine for housework and shopping. I just do whatever, whenever. Now that works for me, and worked for my other 3 kids, but I think it is just too loose for John. I know I need to get this into gear before next year as Kindergarten is looming and he will have to be much more independent. I guess the question is: how do I go about setting up a routine-? How detailed should it be? I know it sounds silly, but I just do not have a brain for this. But my sanity is wearing thin, and I feel like my little monster is running the show here. Not good.

Any and all advice is appreciated. Even as I type this I am thinking about what a tyrant this little man is-and how I need to get some power back.

[momofrussell]

Carolyn, I am just going to through some thoughts out at you. First off, how much can John understand?

Some things that come to the top of my head is maybe within the new structure you are going to build with him, give him some independence. I don't know if he has TOO much right now or not enough. But my thoughts would be for you to maybe write down some "times" to do things like breakfast, lunch, ect... and stick to it. This list would just be as a guide or tool so you don't have to think of when it should be done. Since you aren't a structured person by nature, doing WAY too much structure might overwhelm you, so maybe take it in sections.

Also, if you haven't already tried it, maybe start using photo PECS at home with John so he knows EXACTLY what is happening next. i.e. picture for breakfast, brush teeth, get dressed, play time, backpack on, get on bus. You can either take pictures of this stuff or find drawing type of PECS for it. I think pictures of their daily items they use works best though. Then, you can put them vertically on a board or something like that with a pocket at the bottom. You and John can go to the PECS board and take off the next picture when it comes time to do it and place it in the pocket. For some reason, some of our kids really like (and need) the structure and also like to know what is going on. This helps in transitions. So John could have pictures to structure his morning, and you can have a time table for yourself to keep on track. I would do this in the evening too, for dinner, bath, reading, bed time rituals. So it keeps you all on track.

Do you let John help pick out his clothes? That might be another thing you guys can do, either the night before to prepare him for the next day or in the am as part of your morning routine.

His fighting you could be a cause of a few things. It's hard to know really. He could just be in a phase that he is being stubborn. He could be in an "I need to be very independent" phase but mommy is the one calling all the shots in the morning. Or because your mornings are very casual, he is not adusting to the all of a sudden "get ready for school" stuff.

Depending on how old your other kids are, you can implement this with all the kids. Like the brushing of the teeth, ect.... I only say this is so it stays consistant and all the kids are included and it's more of a family thing. I did this for this school year with Regan and Reece (I have a different structure for Russell (ds) ). So they knew what needed to be done in the am and before bed. I kept it simple to things like bath, brush teeth, breakfast, dinner... those things.

I am not a very structured person with "my" part of the day but Russell NEEDS structure and responds very well to it. So I have been doing the SAME routine in the AM for he and Reece for years now. I also feed him dinner at around the same time everynight. He also gets ready for bed and goes to bed around the same time every night. He is in Elementary SChool now in a k-2 spec ed class and there is LOTS of structure this year and we have seen a WONDERFUL improvement. But I am not a over do it structure girl so after he goes to school, I am somewhat structureless like you are.

Good luck.... hope some of this helps!

A.

[Jessie]

Well, I am the QUEEN of routine!! And, thank GOD that is how Jason is too - so we do just fine in the morning ;D

That's not to say it was easy at first. We had to find a routine that worked for both of us. I basically used the behavior control techniques that were recommended on this site (mostly from MB). Being consistent, persistent and unemotional are the keys to blissfulness in the morning! Unemotional as far as not getting angry, I do praise Jason in the morning when he does well.

Our routine is so good that when I am not home with Jason in the morning, he will still do the same routine and requires only a little guidance. Now, about once a week, I add a little task for him. He has been taking his vitamin and allergy pill very good for quite a while, but now it's his responsibility to rinse out the cup that he used and put it in the sink. The next steps will be picking out his own clothes to wear and eventually waking up to an alarm clock rather than having me wake him up. My plan is just to keep incorporating more things into the routine, one at a time, until it becomes a habit for him, all the while increasing his independence.

Now, Jason is older than your little guy, so that may play a part in it too. I know that Jason's biological mom (not really the "b" word I wanted to use, but I'll be nice on this post! ) had the same issues when Jason was younger. The bus driver used to have to go into their house and drag him out to get him on the bus. I am happy to say that Jason RUNS to the bus in the morning. Helps that he loves his bus driver too.

Maybe start out with having him put the toothpaste on his toothbrush. Amazing how when they have control of that, they suddenly love to brush their teeth! Next, have him get the washcloth out to wash his face, etc., etc.

Although I am a routine freak, my sister is the complete opposite of me, so I kind of feel your pain. I don't really understand that way of thinking , but I can sympathize with your child having needs that are in direct contradiction to the way that you and the rest of your family are wired to operate. My sister's oldest daughter needs a TON more structure and I lecture my sister about this all the time, but it's simply not in her to become a routine, regimented person.

I firmly believe though that most kids really want that routine and to know what is expected of them. Rinsing the cup and putting it into the sink is not a chore for Jason, he loves being responsbile for more and more. It really is a good thing. Rather than looking at is as a chore for you, look at it as a way to free yourself from having him dependent on you and getting stressed out every morning having to deal with that behavior.

Hope I didn't come across as too preach-y - I just feel really strongly about this and have seen it first hand work for Jason.

Good luck! ;D ;D

Jessie

[angela2]

Carolyn, I don't have any advice, but I am very interested in this thread because my son does the same thing. He's 3.5, and takes a bus to school. Lately he has been fussing when its time to go out and get on the bus. He also does this when going into MY car. He is fine once the car is moving, and the bus driver says he is no trouble on the bus.
I am not a "routine" person either...hmmm....could this be a reason for this behavior? I thought maybe he didn't like the cold and didn't want to go outside. (I live in MA...we can't wait for spring!)
Anyway, I am interested to see the responses.

[christie]

Hmmm just another thought on this, could it be JOHN just has transition troubles?? I know my little Character does He is 12 and YES it has gotten better but OMG this is truly a big issue for him. For some reason he just needs to be told mins. before we do something that we will be doing it, seems to make his transition a bit easier even if its just getting in the jeep and going off to the store, then once he is in the store he doesn't want to leave so I warn him a few before we are going what we are up to next. Not sure why, but seems to work for us

I will share with you too I am soooooo not structured, more of the type that goes with the flow, what ever the day will bring Although I will share that Chris loves structure, personally I feel he has to learn that things come up and life is just not the same every day

Just my thoughts...

CC

[Jessie]

CC - Although I am a proud, card-carrying member of the routine/structure type of person club , I do agree with your comment about people needing to be able to be agile as well and just go with the flow. Our kids do need to be able to handle whatever is thrown at them in order to be truly independent someday. But, to have happy mornings, we need structure in our house ;D ;D

[justinsmom]

Count me in as structured challenged too , but when it comes to Justin it's a MUST. He has to get up in the morning with his sisters, so I just went with that, they get up brush their teeth and their he is doing his, they get dressed and he gets his clothes although they don't match at the time but I let him go with it. He watches Ashley get on the bus for school every morning, so I think that's what makes him run for it in the afternoon when it comes to get him. He picks out his breakfast, either he goes to the freezer for french toast sticks or waffles or to the pantry for a box of cereal, gets his spoon or fork and sits at the table and waits ok granted he is barking orders at me for something to drink and to get him a bowl . His old school as you know was so unstructured we had alot of problems with him. He definitely needs his structure and routines and is not a happy camper when his routine is changed, good example sub bus aide or driver he will stop dead in his tracks and start heading for the house, it takes awhile but we manage to get him on the bus without kicking and screaming fortunately their is a little girl on the bus that is in his class so we tell him to go sit with Alexis and she'll take you to Bella his other woman in class lol. The bus driver is really good in that they try to make sure at least one of them is on the bus, never has their been a sub aide and sub driver on the same day.
I don't know about John but does he love to imitate Elizabeth, Bridgett and Peter if so I say go with it. Oh and by the way yes I make sure Justin is matching before he gets on the bus lol. It wasn't easy but I just kept saying come on Alyssa and Ashley are getting ready for school and stuck with it. Now I tell him a couple of minutes before the bus comes and he gets his coat on and puts on his backpack and watches out the window for the bus. He just needs routine and if I forget the routine or get side tracked which is ALWAYS he will definitely let me know, lol he knows it better than I do. I love the PECS idea and they use it with Justin at school daily we use a little of it a home but we always know what he wants or is trying to tell us. Hang in there, I just make sure our mornings are as routine as possible and make all my running around while he's in school. It's as easy as him getting up brushing teeth, eating breakfast, getting dressed, video time ( a definite given lol), and then we do a little ST with his leap factory game or something else I usually let him pick it out and then it's time for the bus. We just make sure we keep everything as close to a schedule as possible, he is also in bed at 7 every night and up at the crack of dawn. But I honestly have to say it's because he HAS to be like his sisters whatever they do he has to do right down to the homework and let me tell you when it's time for Alyssa to practice her flute he is right there with her old recorder grrrrrrrr lol.

[christie]

LOL JESSIE girl you said

"I am a proud, card-carrying member of the routine/structure type of person club" I LOVE it girl and in all honesty Chris would love it too if I were in that club Hmmm but not sure that club would take me LOLOL

Funny this has made me think of when I was growing up, OMG at our house you had to sit for dinner at 5PM every day weather your were hungry or not. That was dinner time, no matter what, everything had to stop and we all had to sit for dinner. K, so when I was grown and responsible for dinner, LOLOL, I would eat any time, as long as it wasn't 5 PM, even if I was hungry then, LOLOL Hmmm now that tells you a little bout my personality, REBEL LOLOL

Chris gets tons of structure in his school one of the reasons he does so very well there I think. But at home its more like what the days brings and in all honesty he has trouble adapting to that BUT over the years he has gotten much better with adapting to my ways LOL

BUT in all seriousness, I do agree that our kids, all kids for that matter do better with structure

[TriciaF]

Hey.....I am with you....very resistant to routine. Anything that I do must be tailored to me or I will rebel. Try the flylady site....she has a pretty flexible approach. You can read it all on the site....or buy the book, Sink Reflections. I did both and I really like the book. I don't follow all the rules....but they do make some sense to me and I have altered my attitude toward housework a little. I tended to be a frustrated perfectionist.....and since it was never perfect....just didn't see the point!! LOL. Alos, I have finally gotten out of the mindset that routine cuts into my free time. Now, I realize it allows more free time. Flylady has a saying, I don't remember it exactly...but something along the lines of ...even imperfect cleaning blesses your family.


www.flylady.com/index.asp

www.flylady.com/pages/FlyBaby_Preschoolers.asp

I still struggle with routine...but this helped me alot to get motivated. And...of course....I heard about it the same place I get all me good advice...here at Unomas!

[Jessie]

I think my routine "issue" is more of a control thing! ;D Speaking of growing up, my mom was so NOT structured, so maybe it's my way of rebelling against that. Hmmmm, get a little support here at UnoMas, plus a little free psychotherapy!!

However, I'm not as bad as my new sis-in-law. She will not LET her kids make their beds because they don't do it the "right" way! WHATEVER!! Now THAT'S a control freak. And, yes, I told her so! We were friends before I even met her brother so it's ok for me to say things like that to her - LOL.


Jessie

[laurasnowbird]

Carolyn:

Boy, the shopping and meal-making are still issues for me, but I am on a schedule and it makes my life sooo much easier. Once a week I figure out what I'm going to make for meals for the week, and literally schedule them out day by day. I have a list of meals that I can do in a short time (45 minutes or less) and those that take a little longer. I select a quick meal for the nights that we get home later because Victoria has violin lessons, and pick from the other list for nights when I have a little more time. I never find myself in the "what shall I make for dinner" dilemma anymore because I have it planned out. The night before I look at my menu, and remove the meat from the freezer for the next day. That was actually one of my huge stumbling blocks before I got organized. It would be 3:00 in the afternoon before I started thinking about it, and I'd have no time to defrost anything!

Flylady does have some great ideas, check her out!

Jessie,

I'm with you, my mom was a total slob, hated to cook, hated to clean, and my friends jokingly call me Martha Stewart all the time. (And I am noooo fan of Martha Stewart, although I do believe she got a bum rap)

I think my clean-aholic ways are in reaction to the household I grew up in as well.

TRICIA:

I LOVE Flylady! I think she's a hoot, and has a lot of great ideas. I agree that picking and choosing from her ideas is the way to go. I could NEVER implement them all!

[Cbean]

Oh wow, thanks for the Flylady site info. Going to comb through that one for sure! We're somewhat lax in routine and I know we're going to need to start improving that here for Miss Em! Carolyn, wanna be FlyBabies together?

[MB]

O.K. you asked for advice!!! When my son was around age six is when I really threw down the gauntlet and decided I was taking back control of my life!

This is not for the faint of heart, so scroll on down if you have a weak spine. LOL

When my son went through the "I don't want to get ready for school because I am busy doing something else that is more appealing" stage, I eliminated the more appealing thing. That would be t.v. in our case.

When he decided he "wasn't going to get ready for school because some mother wasn't going to tell him what to do" stage, I told him I was going to put him on the bus in his pajamas and give the bus driver a bag of his clothes. I put together a bag of his clothes. I then called school while he was listening and told the secretary what I was planning to do. I told him the kids would make fun of him. He had very delayed speech at the time so I didn't know if I was being understood. I was so frustrated I didn't care. Lo and behold, at the last minute, he put on his clothes and ran to the bus.

I also upped his responsibilities at home. I was appalled that any kid of mine would be so disrespectful to me. But, I had spent years acommodating, appeasing and negotiating with him so what else did I expect to have but a terrorist. Once I stopped acommodating, appeasing and negotiating, his behavior started to turn around.

I decided to start winning every battle. If I had to wait him out, I did. If I had to help him do things hand over hand, I did that. If he didn't set the table, I waited with the plates in my hand and announced to the family that everyone was going hungry that night because my son didn't do his job. I then went through everyone's responsibilities and how they had contributed to the family that day. Yes, I even used guilt. But, it worked.

There were a few things that did not work.

1. Getting mad didn't work.
2. Lots of praise did not work.
3. Reward charts did not work. They confused him.
4. Consequences that had nothing to do with the
behavior didn't work. It just confused him.
5. Giving choices where choices didn't exist was a
nightmare. Therapists would say, let's get to work,
o.k.? I would come unglued and tell them that they
needed to eliminate the choice because he was
taking them literally. They had to rephrase with
"Let's get to work."
6. Long explanations didn't work. Simple 3-4 word
sentences worked. "Set the table now." Stopped
saying, "Dad is coming home pretty soon and dinner
is almost ready so set the table."

What surprised me the most was how much happier he was being treated like a regular kid who was a spoiled brat rather than being treated like he was special.

I'll never forget when he came home after a couple of weeks of middle school and announced, "I love school. I get in trouble just like the other kids." I thought that was one of the most profound things I had ever heard.

As far as routines go, I think they are very important for kids with Ds who have a hard time being compliant. If you watch super-nanny, you will see that the first thing she tells the parents is that they have to have a routine.

I've always said that a routine is good, but rigid is bad. So we aspire to a regular routine, but make him accept changes when necessary.

For you Moms who do not favor routines, I've always had a theory that you fall into a category that is artistic and creative and the routine stifles the creativity. Would you all chime in and tell me if that describes you? It's just another of my off the wall theories.

We have a nice routine at our house because my husband requires it. I grew up in a large household that would have been like the movie, Cheaper By the Dozen, if my mother and father did not adhere to a routine. I felt very safe in that environment. And, it cut down on a lot of needless communication with my parents. Can you imagine 12 kids asking questions all day about when we were going to have meals?

AHA! There it is! A lightbulb just went off! Is it possible that our kids must have a routine because they can't ask questions about what is coming next?

I'll leave you with that to ponder! Hope there will be some replies.

MB

[Chris]

I know teachers who always have the agenda posted on the board every morning. This is very helpful for kids who aren't able to transition easily (which is most, I believe). Many children are anxious when they don't know what will happen next. I like A.'s suggestion of using a pecs board to let him know what will happen next.

I am not the queen of routine but I force myself to follow a routine. It works best for our entire family. I think I am the one who has the most difficulty when a wrench is thrown in our routine. I really don't like surprises and don't handle change very well. I am a firm believer that children are happier when they understand what is expected of them. Wishy washy teachers and parents make unhappy kids.

MB, you are the master mom of behavior modification. You should really call yourself MMBM. I love your posts!

Chris

[SuziF]

I don't know MB.
I'm very artistic & spur of the moment where that's concerned(I've already tiled a floor on a whim) but I'd have to say overall I'm in the middle of the pack~too much routine drives me nuts. I'm very much a "no one tells me what to do" person (adds to great conflict because we have some very control freak family members) I've done Flylady & have some odd habits.I HAVE to do a load of laundry before 8:30 each morning, my socks HAVE to match my outfit or I won't wear any, Sat nights are pizza night.We also have seasonal routines that the household falls into. When football season rolls around there's a certain rhythym for how our afternoon & evening evolves to get everyone off to practice. To some extent though we have to be flexible or it wouldn't work with 4kids & their different activities.
Wierdly, Meri freaks over things you can't really set a pattern to. Example: last night I put her into the car at the same time as the night before when we were headed to her hippotherapy.When I didn't turn onto the road leading to the stable she went nuts. There was no consolling her the rest of the trip. When I pulled in the driveway, like a switch she started demanding to "Wing!" as earlier in the day we went from the car to the swingset when it was warm & sunny. There's no way I was putting her on the swing at 6:30 when the temp was dropping rapidly. Only thing that diverted her was Daddy just happened to pull in the driveway. She started waving to him which gave me the moment to scurry her up the steps into the house.