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Post by Kristen on Mar 22, 2005 13:42:56 GMT -5
1. Why she is in the hospice? For how many years? She is in hospice because her husband put her there. SHe has been there at least 10 years.
2. Who pays for her care? Money from the malpractice settlement her husband won. Whatever is left goes to him in adition to the almost 1/2 million he took for himself.
3. Why husband the only person who can make decision? That's the law.
4. What doctors recommend? They recommended rehabilitation. Her husband denied that years ago. he took her out of her wheelchair and put her in a hospital bed. She is not allowed outside and hasn't been out for the last 5 years.
5. What benefits Mr. Shivo will get if his wife will be taken off the feeding tube and die. What is left of almost a million dollars put in her trust. He also gets to marry the woman he lives with and had children with. Also various movie of the week deals, I am sure.
7. What if medicine this days doesn't have that feeding tubes? I don't understand this question. I assume that you mean what if medicine didn't have feeding tubes. If they didn't have that, it would be safe to say they would nto have had lot of other things and her husband would have been able to effectively kill her without all this muss and fuss.
6. Why some of you think that it is some how related to DS? It is not realted to DS and I didn't see anyone say that. It IS related to the right of disabled people to be free to live and receive effective therapies and interventions to help them live a good life. The example I drew is because opinions change all the time and practices do, as well. What is standard now will not be 10 years from now, so why not err on the side of life? If our children were denied the very basics she has been, they would not be the same people they are today and I would foree a very slippery slope like she has fallen into.
I don't have time to research this, but this is pretty mainstream information. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Post by Alice on Mar 22, 2005 14:35:40 GMT -5
Kristen, thanks for you respond.
I still do not know who is right and who is wrong in this very sad story. My heart goes on for that woman. She used to be so beautiful and full of life and now it is nothing like her before, which means her brain is dead.
It is very obvious that everyone is looking for his/hers/their interest in this case. And the interest is MONEY. If you think the husband wants money (you might be right, but I am not sure), doctors also want money(if they recommend rehabilitation at the point that she will never recover), politics need to be elected and this is the way for them to get their money, or maybe parents and siblings want money too.
OK, I meant under: "7. What if medicine this days doesn't have that feeding tubes?" - if the medicine doesn't have this artificial feeding device, Terry would be dead long time ago.
This case should be solved only in favor of Terry - what is best for her. To live this life or die in peace.
It is interesting how many of us would want to live this life? Or it doesn't matter if the brain is dead?
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Post by Kristen on Mar 22, 2005 14:56:58 GMT -5
She is not brain dead. If she were brain dead she would not be able to breathe on her own, move, or respond as is reported. From what i have heard (obviously can;t see her myself!) she is a disabled woman who was doing well in therapy until her husband discontinuted it, got another woman pregnant and then wated her tube out.
To say doctors want to do therapy for the money is rediculous. Therpists do therapy and we all know how hard it is to come by a good therapist, much less an available one at all for some areas (like speech!) because they are booked. They don't need the money of that one woman to keep themselves going, believe me.
The craziest part is that an inmate on death row gets a shot because it's humane. Why is she having to be starved to death? Because humane in this case is illegal. If she went and shot someone they would give her an injection. Instead she is at their mercy and starved to death. There is NO painless starvation, even with meds being shoved up your butt three times a day (yes, that is how a lot of the anti nausea medications are given in these cases).
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Post by meghans_mom on Mar 22, 2005 16:29:56 GMT -5
I can't say who is right or wrong in this case - and really that's not my decision to make anyways, is it? <br> I do know that when my husband's family had to face a similar situation, it was VERY difficult, even though we had an idea of what the person's wishes were.
Probably alot of people don't know this but this type of death occurs every day in nursing homes across the United States...We routinely pull feeding tubes on patients and allow them to die - BY DEHYDRATION (this is not starvation because you will die from dehydration way before you starve to death)...of course it usually occurs when there is expressed written instructions to that nature, or when the family agrees to do so, as we were asked to agree to. And in these cases the patients are terminally ill, or have no hope of recovery.
However, most of these patients are followed by hospice and should be given adequate pain control, etc...and these meds are not usually given in suppository form but sublingually (under the tongue) or by injection. Since Terri Schindler-Schiavo IS in a hospice, I am hoping they are giving her every medication to make this passing "bearable" for her, as far as pain goes...they can even put her into a medically induced coma, although I am not sure she still won't be able to feel pain? I've known terminal patients who have had this done...but this woman is not a terminal patient.
Another thing - when you hear "no extraordinary measures"...this does NOT MEAN no nutrition or hydration. It means no artificial breathing, etc. Alot of people do not fully understand the terminology associated with Living Wills & Proxys and this is where the trouble lies. Did Ms. Schiavo tell her husband NO intervention or simply no extraordinary means? Big difference.
I read this in an article today and thought it made alot of sense: ""If Terri is permitted to starve to death simply because a court ordered it to occur, we will have not only allowed this woman to perish, we will have endangered the lives of virtually every American who is deemed to be too great a burden on our society and who cannot speak for themselves," Perkins added."
I feel very badly for this woman, although I doubt that she would ever come out of this to a "normal" functioning level...but I also know that if this was a family member of mine, I too would find it extremely difficult to ever give up hope.
If we have all learned anything from this woman & her family's suffering, make sure your WISHES are well known and recorded...and know the wishes of your loved ones as well, parents, siblings, spouses. We're all young, and don't like to think about these things but they happen.
I could go on and on here....Ethics was one of my favorite courses in college. anyways...I'm going to try and stay away from this thread 'cause I have a feeling it's going to be a hotbed. My prayers are with Ms. Schiavo and her family. -L.
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Post by Haleysmom on Mar 22, 2005 16:30:30 GMT -5
Kristen, Hope I don't sound uninformed, but aren't hospices for terminally ill patients? If she is only on a feeding tube is she still classified as terminal?
What malpractice settlement?
Also asking you since you seem to know - someone mentioned bone fractures and strangulation marks - 1st is this true? If yes, why didn't courts remove husband as guardian and pursue criminal charges?
Thanks for your input
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Post by Kristen on Mar 22, 2005 16:39:09 GMT -5
If you look at terrisfight.org it can give you a lot more info than my interpretations. I am not 100% sure about the parameters of the malpractice lawsuit, so I am not going to comment on it, but it did happen. It also documents the bone fractures and evidence of strangulation that was found. It also says she did not have an eating disorder - from what I know you need to be pretty bad to get a potassium imbalance from it, so someone would most likely notice it way before then.
Hospice is generally for prople who will not recover from their illness, that's my understanding. Why she is there...? Someone help me out. Is it a hospice that is a long term care facility for people in comas, PVS, etc as well? That is my guess.
Either way, Laurie made some really good points - hydration is not extraordinary means! This is so saddening to me. Where is appreciation for human life? Additionally, the research I did sepcifically on this mentioned suppository meds for nausea, that is what I was referring to. If that's wrong, I do apologize, but I was reading from a nurse who was outlining what would be done to her. Poor woman is being denied an ice cube for pity's sake!
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Post by Valerie on Mar 22, 2005 17:53:57 GMT -5
Hospice is generally for people that have been given less than 6 mos to live, which is really just a "guess" as know one can accurately predict a time of death. From what I understand, and I may be wrong, I think her husband had her put in hospice years ago when he won a court order to pull her feeding tube, which they did for a couple days before it was overruled and re-inserted.
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Post by momofrussell on Mar 22, 2005 18:15:51 GMT -5
What is starting to get confusing about all the info on this is what is and isn't erroneous. I am SO DARN CONFUSED! Kristen, you have given us some pretty good info and I appreciate that. Sounds like you've done your homework! I have not gone to that website you gave yet. But I get so confused because that site would have good info you'd think, but you watch the news and whatnot and get info that she did have an eating disorder. That is what is so confusing.... The hearsay stuff I can muddle through... but even the medical stuff is starting to confuse me seems EVERYONE's info is "accurate" but on both sides of the coin.... And very confusing. A.
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Post by Alice on Mar 22, 2005 19:31:19 GMT -5
If Terry is not that bad as it seems, why he (her husband) doesn't ask for the divorce from her, give all money from the malpractice settlement he won to Terry's parents and let them to take care of her, and live his own life? It seems like to families are having a battle: every one from the husband's side says that her brain dead, and every one from the Terry's side says that she is fine. Oh, well... I am praying for Terry...
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Post by Chris on Mar 22, 2005 19:42:10 GMT -5
"OK, I meant under: "7. What if medicine this days doesn't have that feeding tubes?" - if the medicine doesn't have this artificial feeding device, Terry would be dead long time ago." Alice ~ I take this rather personally since my daughter would be dead if she hadn't had a feeding tube. It isn't artificial feeding, it is just a different route to get food to the stomach. I'm just curious how many other parents on this board had a child on a feeding tube. Chris
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Post by Deannalee on Mar 22, 2005 21:46:08 GMT -5
To answer the last question, my son, Justin has always been tube fed. he is unable to effectively swallow and also aspirates.
This is an ethical question. I have to say that i am an RN and worked step down ICU. We have received oreders over and oover again to do terminal weans from ventilators or pull feeding tubes. this case is a lot different than what my son is dealing with. I have read and heard from the news that the woman had starved herself due to anorexia and this lead to her very debilitated state. she ended up with brain damage from what I understand. I have not heard or read all info, but this case is a difficult one. Looking at her quality of life, I would personally not want to live like she is. From what i understand, she did not wish this either.
I have been on both sides of this fence personally. I have a surviving twin who is tube fed, and I have his twin who was a terminal wean from the vent. I chose to leave the decision to remove life support to the DR because I loved him and did not want to lose him. On the other hand, he did not deserve to suffer. I am happy that he had more quality in a short life than more quantity of life with less quality.
Deanna
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Post by christie on Mar 22, 2005 23:39:52 GMT -5
LAURIE, THANKS for posting what you did, I sooo liked reading your response on this thread and agree TOTALLY.
I have been in this situation twice Once with my Mom and my Sis
I see someone posted that they must not be brain dead and someone, if I got this right, wrote that she must be brain dead. Well there is a medical test that can be done to prove if one is or isn't. It was done on both my Mom and Sis. I have nooo idea if it was done on this woman??
I just wanted to add that unless you have been there its very easy to say do this or that. It comes down to what the person wanted and if they made that clear and unless you have that in some kind of legal form this could happen to anyone, sadly
Having worked for a lawyer for over 10 years I have every possible thing you can have in writing, LOL but you know I have done that soooo none of my loved ones ever have to go thru what is happening here in this case. They ALL can simply look at what I have written out and know exactly what I want.
Now I am NOT saying this is the case here, cause I have NOOOOOO idea BUT I will share that sometimes, NOT all , but sometimes ones just can't let go, no matter what their loved one wishes were and maybe JUST maybe that is the case here.
None of us will ever know, only this woman will and I am sooooooooooo sorry she is even in this state
CC ~
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Post by Tammy on Mar 23, 2005 7:34:44 GMT -5
OK.... I don't usually enter into debaes on such topics but felt I need to say something here.... This PERSON, DOES have a life... she does NOT rely on life support, so it is not a decision as to whether to turn off life support or not, this PERSON is NOT brain dead, so there fore life IS supported by and with basic body functions. By removing her feeding tube, they are subjecting her to CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT by way of STARVATION..... Is this NOT considered INHUMANE??? We are NOT allowed to Starve our children, we are NOT allowed to Starve our pets... Hech... we even raise funds to feed the kids that STARVE in Africa.... WHY should this PERSON be allowed to STARVE to DEATH... while UNER COMPETEND MEDICAL SUPERVISION? This COULD be a HUGE arguement in the Euthanasia debate... Our current Society is supposedly so VERY Pro-Life, but Anti Euthanasia... Tell me where is the Humanity in the way this PERSON heas been treated...? NOT that I am PRO Euthanasia..... BUT IF this is the way the COURTS (and therefore the "public" ) see as the only solution... Would it not be better to give her a large dose of PIAN releiving medication to releive her pain.... (forever...) As I can only see that she sees and understands what is happening... but sadly is powerless to do anything about it.... Henceforth.... ALL people with a disability NEED a GOOD Advocate that is TRUELY able to stand up for the rghts and NEEDS of the individual.....
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Post by Kristen on Mar 23, 2005 12:52:19 GMT -5
ITA that stuff is confusing - I just heard the confirmation of the eating disorder, but I think it was being on the down low for a while becasue there is some question as to wether or not that actually caused the condition, KWIM? SHe coudl have had that and her husband could have been beating her at the same time and blamed it. That's why this is such a messed up example of this type of case - SO many variables!
Food and water are not extraordinary means! If not for a feeding tube, yes, Terri would have passed sooner. However, in the whole sceme of things a ventilator, bypass, and other machines are WAY more advanced than that, so if medicine didn't have a feeding tube, they would not have a lot of other things so I don't get the point in even bringing that up. What if medicine didn't have a lot of things then a lot of us would be in trouble.
I was discussing this with someone who said well, if I were blinded I wouldn't wan tto live that way either, so I hope someone would shoot me! Do you really think they menat it? Would I be able to go shoot him if he went blind? Where is the reasonable interpretation of denotation vs. connotation here? I get so angry just thinking about it.
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Post by christie on Mar 24, 2005 0:28:23 GMT -5
OMG, I have been folding laundry for the last hour and watching TV News Shows on this story and OMG I am just plain sick over all this As I have said earlier I have been thru this in some way but our circumstances were sooo different, my sis was in a coma for 2 weeks and no hope what so ever and the Docs were asking us what is the wishes of the family My Mom who underwent open heart sadly two days later suffered a major stroke and the Docs were then again asking us what were the wishes of the family since this post I have paid more attention to this story and OMG I just watched Terry's Mom and I am sick over all this I just heard Govenor Bush speak and I am thinking OMG with all this talking and such we have a woman dieing OMG let the madness STOP and PLEASE let her be appointed an advocate as this is all going on or OMG she will die while all talk talk and talk on this subject PRAYERS going out from New Jersey for this family CC ~
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