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Post by GatorTracyB on Jun 1, 2004 13:52:34 GMT -5
I need some expert advice. We have some behavioral issues that we have been working on with James to little or no avail. In a nutshell, James is a thrower. He throws toys, books, his food, his juice cup, etc... He is VERY particular about his personal space and is VERY choosy about what he allows in this space. We have been working on this behavior at home and school for over a year. He is better at school then he is at home, which makes sense due to the structure and TPR. At both locations we have tried redirection, removal of objects, ignoring, and time out. I believe there is a certain level of manipulation on the part of Master James. He likes, as my husband puts it, to "play the Down's card" when he wants things to go a certain way. James can act as if being told not to throw his juice cup across the room for the 479th time was actually the 1st time he has ever heard such a rule. Quite honestly, I am about over the throwing thing. At times, I think I'd like to throw him! It is frustrating in the sense that BY NOW you'd think he'd figure out that we don't want him throwing things! Has anyone out there had any similiar experiences? The extra-special part is that James' little sis, Caroline, LOVES to do what her big brother does... do you see where I am going with this? My frustration level is, um, HIGH, to say the least. AND, in addition, we have feeding issues that kind of go hand in hand with the throwing. James used to eat anything you put in front of him. Once we started pushing self-feeding-which has been a chore with the whole proximity thing he has- James has become picky. At times he will be eating just fine and then he will start taking the food out his mouth half chewed and throw it. Mealtimes and after eating clean up is a treat at our house. Again, at school, the behavior isn't as bad, but does still occur. I wonder how much of what we see goes hand in hand with communication- or lack there of. James is "gifted" physically but is definetly delayed in language. His receptive is good- when he wants it to be, but expressive is pretty much non-existent. When he starts pre-K in the fall, I have asked to have his Language time increased, so hopefully some progress will begin. Any advice would be great! Let me add that by trade I am a Special Ed. teacher of kids with Behavioral issues- and I stand here now and apologize for all the times I have thought that the parents who said they couldn't get there kid to behave at home eventhough I had them doing great at school were SLACKERS!! If you don't LIVE it, you can't UNDERSTAND it!!! LIfe at school and life at home are sooooooo different!! Thanks, in advance!
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Post by YoshsMom on Jun 1, 2004 14:11:53 GMT -5
Have you ever tried overcorrection? Its where you have the child do the undesirable behavior over and over until he's sick of it. For example, if he throws a toy, make him get it and throw it over and over. Treat it like a game, not a punishment. Say stuff like " You like throwing your ..., lets do it again. Now go get it and throw it again as hard as you can. Good. Lets do it again." Do it every time he throws something and pretty soon throwing will be the last thing he wants to do. I know it sounds strange, but it does work if you're consistent.
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Post by MB on Jun 1, 2004 16:49:58 GMT -5
Look out, the keyboard is red hot!! I love behavior issues for young kids with Ds.
Why is he throwing the food or the cup? What is he trying to tell you? Find the reason for the throwing and you will find the cure. Let's assume you cannot figure out why he is throwing and throw out some ideas.
When my son was that age, we went out for pizza. He had been obnoxious at the dinner table for a while and I had no idea what he wanted. I cut up his pizza and gave it to him. He pushed it away and pointed to his sister. I told him it was the same thing, just cut up. He ended up grabbing a handful of the cut-up pizza and throwing it in my face. Then, he grabbed his sister's whole piece and started eating it. I looked at him and said, "are you too old to have your food cut up?" He smiled and nodded. From then on, we asked if he would like help with his food before we cut it.
So, could it be the kid wants to use a grown up glass and not have his food cut up Could it be that he wants out of a high chair or booster seat? Really try to take yourself out of the situation and observe what is going on right before the throwing or pulling the food out of his mouth.
My son did go through a period where he was continually choking on food. He was putting too much in his mouth at once and then couldn't move it around so he could chew it. After about 15-20 times of having to dump all the food in his mouth, he figured out how to take smaller bites.
Young kids with Ds need 15-20 corrections before anyone can decide whether the behavior modification is going to work. Have you done your modifications at least 20 times consistently in a row? If not, try again.
Try to show no emotion. Our son would use both praise and anger against us. If we were overly happy with a behavior, he would refuse to do it. If we were overly upset, he would do it all the time. It is really hard, but show no emotion.
If the throwing and food pulling is simply obnoxious behavior, then pull out all the stops and let this kid know who is in charge. Find a time out spot that the kid hates. For us, it was an empty crib in his bedroom. He could hear us, but not see us or participate. Then, we would further torture the little guy by laughing and talking. Our son was very social and taking him out of the party was a huge punishment. Our son clearly knew the difference between bedtime and a time out. We would turn him away from us and carry him to bed for time out and then close the door half-way. For bed, we had a different ritual which included pajamas, stories, kisses etc...
Getting mad at our son got us nowhere. Taking some kind of action was the thing that worked. I would highly recommend you make him clean up any mess (hand over hand) before he gets timed out. You should never be punished for his actions, he should be punished for his actions.
Consistency is very important. Once you have a plan of action, you must stick to it in every circumstance. If he throws in a restaurant, then take him home and put him in the crib. If you want the behavior to change, you will have to suffer through every situation where he has used the behavior. Even if it means taking two cars everywhere you go so one of you can drive him home, I would do it. You will only have to do it for a week and he will stop. But, if you go to your sister's wedding and he throws and you don't arrange for him to go home, you might as well not have ever started the behavior mod. Our kids know when they have us between a rock and a hard place. The key is to show this kid you are committed and he might as well give up.
Again, show no emotion. If you are mad, driving home from your sister's wedding, he's won and has been given a very powerful tool to use against you.
Good luck,
MB
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Post by GatorTracyB on Jun 2, 2004 7:19:53 GMT -5
oh, how we have all tried to figure out the puzzle of WHY... I will observe more closely to see if there are any clues- or signs- that he is about to let loose. I appreciate the suggestions and will let you know how things go!
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Post by alecsdad on Jun 2, 2004 8:41:40 GMT -5
We have your son's twin. Alec (3) loves to throw everything. He has been doing since his arms started working. His favorite is throwing his toys over the gate to his playroom. He seems to do it more when he gets bored or wants attention and he does it more to his mother (who reacts more). I tend to ignore it and change the subject which seems to work. This includes getting something like a ball to start a throwing game. Alec has a 12 y/o brother (not ds) who did the same thing untill he could communicate. I think is their way of having some control and when it gets a strong reaction they seem to do it more. Hope this helps Mike Alec's therapists want us to have him pick the things up and put them away when he throws them.
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Post by didmyheartgood on Jun 2, 2004 9:03:14 GMT -5
Lord Knows, I am far from giving "expert" advice, but I have seen this work with other children. Prior to being a SAHM with my guys, I worked for many years as a case manager with chidren that required "high management due to their behaviors." Heck of a job title huh? Here is something that helped with the throwing issue. We made a place that it was OK to throw. Anytime the child was observed throwing things that were inappropriate (food, toys, objects at other people, etc..) The child would be removed and taken to the "throwing place" Instead of negative attention being placed on the behavior, we would encourage it, as long as it was "in this place". It was nothing more than a small corner in the room. It had a basket of items the child was allowed to throw back into the basket. Instead of trying to make the child no longer have the behavior, we opted to just redirect the actual behavior instead of the child. With consistency, it worked. The child soon realized that each time he/she threw, they would be asked to go the "the throwing place." The child could stay there as long as he needed to and was encoraged to throw while there. This idea does follow along the same lines as over correction that Yoshsmom was talking about. It just gives a physical and visual barrier to where throwing is appropriate and where it is not. A place could be made at school as well as at home. Once they understand that the basket of items are OK, then you can make it portable if need be.(take in your car, if you think you will need it while out) Eventually, it becomes a task for the child and looses it's appeal. Throwing is not as much fun nor the attention seeking behavior it once was.... Hope it helps... Kim
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Post by ashliesmomheidi on Jun 2, 2004 9:15:11 GMT -5
Oh man the throwing!!! Ugh!! BTDT!!! Ashlie was around 3 when she started and around 4 or 5 when she finally stopped all together!! We tried everything she would throw her cup to her toys to books to whatever she could get her hands on including food. We did go get her Toy Balls so she knew those would be ok to throw but she mainly loved to throw her cup, That tippy would go a flying whenever she was done with it, We were always taking her hands with cup in hand and placing it down so she knew not to throw it but eventually she did outgrow it. But I was reading the other posts and Kim brought up a good point, Make an area where it is ok to throw. My "typical" son who just finished preschool they had an area in there classroom that when the kids got into heated arguments they had to go sit at the "peace table" and talk calmly to resolve there differences. So I would definitley make an area where its ok to throw to see if it helps as the peace table worked
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Post by GatorTracyB on Jun 2, 2004 13:05:04 GMT -5
I really like the idea of having a "throwing place". That kind of used to be our porch, but when the baby is around, even that isn't an "okay" area.
It is very comforting to know that we are not the only family that has seen this type of behavior. It is hard to gauge what is a 'kid' thing, what is a 'boy' thing, what is a 'downs' thing. I often feel we created many of the issues we deal with, and know the longer they go on, the harder it will be to break them. It is amazing how something as rewarding as parenthood could simultaneously be the most frustrating job ever created!!
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Post by Chris on Jun 2, 2004 14:42:30 GMT -5
I could have written this post! Sarah (2 1/2) is also a thrower. Throwing food and her cup is the most frustrating. She also spits out food. I have had no luck training her not to throw. The funniest thing she does is throw her baby and blanket out of her crib when she is done sleeping or doesn't want to go to sleep. She also tears off the sheet and mattress pad. Chris
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Post by shellk on Jun 3, 2004 7:40:46 GMT -5
Tracy, You are singing my song...!!!!!!!!!! Kourtney is just down right obnoxious at times and it gets to be unbearable. I have been telling her for 2 years the stove is hot yet she will touch it..Sorta an example..She throws, loves kicking and smacking and loves tackling others..He ped has told me that this is because she is emotionally like a 2-3 years old. I don't know but I love MB's suggestion and have tried ..Sometimes it is very hard and my little one who is 8 months is also starting to do the things that she does as far as whining allllllllllllllllllllll the time for something and I have asked to see another behavioral specialist and am waiting for clearance from insurance.. I feel for ya girl.....It is not a fun road and has really been tought for us over here and on my marriage...If I find anything that helps will send it you way please do them same. Michele Gator what part of Florida are you in again....Me St. Petersburg.
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Post by GatorTracyB on Jun 3, 2004 14:01:36 GMT -5
Okay, I have been observing J-man to see what is happening when he begins his hurling of things. He has so far done it while laughing, while being angry at me for taking the remote control away from him and while he was angry for the ONE stupid video he pays a lick of attention to was over. As far as throwing food, I have tried another (2,976 and counting) intervention for the past two days. I let him get GOOD and HUNGRY... I mean to the point where he climbs in his high chair and sits...for a while... like 30 minutes or so. I will try to give him a bite or a drink and if he even makes a slight attempt to throw, slap away or spit it out, I leave with the food and drink and let him sit some more. We'll see how long this works!
The baby doll out of the crib made me chuckle- for James it is his binky. SOmetimes we hear it hit the back of the door as we close it or other times he puts it in his mouth and then reaches his hand out of his crib and drops it as if to say "I can't possibly suck on that thing another day!" I don't even want to think what life is going to be liek when he moves from his crib. For now, he is happy and fits very easily (36inches, 28lbs.). I like the fact he is trapped and can't play with his blinds or slam the drawers of his dresser- another favorite annoying habit we are trying to break! Sometimes I feel like all I do is chase the kid around saying/signing NO and STOP! Poor child!
BTW, I am in Ocala, just south of Gator-ville! We were in the Clearwater area last weekend- be back the weekend of the 4th and hopefully done to St. Pete Beach for a weekend get away sans kids before I go back to teaching in the fall! 2 months away and counting!
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Post by lindy on Jun 3, 2004 15:26:23 GMT -5
I can't help much with behavior... but I would like to point out that I am 40 miles from Ocala and about 75 miles from St. Pete... in Homosassa. Nice to see some people from around here.
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Post by Claire on Jun 3, 2004 22:59:10 GMT -5
Adam 6 went through that stae of throwing everything that was at arms lenght. What we did is every time he through something we made him pick it up and do the proper thing. Even now he is still very fussy on where is space is. Like his glass of milk has to be in a certain spot and so on, and if we move it without him seeing, he will see it and move it back. He also doesn't like to may things right in front of him. Hope this helps.
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Post by justinsmom on Jun 4, 2004 12:05:03 GMT -5
Justins' throwing started when his EI teacher started trying him to get his eye hand coordination going. He started soon after that with throwing anything and everything. I had to have a little talk with the teacher and suggest we do other things to work on this. We then had to work with him on what and when it was appropriate, if he threw something he had to go get it and put it away, if he threw yet again the object got put up, 3rd strike time out and then off to his room if the time out didn't work. It did take awhile but he did figure it out. We also kept an eye on triggers, such as he would throw when he wanted extra attention, tired or just bored. We also used the toss across game, a laundry basket with bean bag animals, we didn't want to totally stop him from throwing but to let him know there are things and places to throw. He'll be 4 on the 10th and so far the only thing he has thrown was his shoes out the car window last week grrrrrrrrr
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Post by momofrussell on Jun 4, 2004 14:52:11 GMT -5
Well, at least we can be assured there is comfort in numbers... seems LOTS of our kids throw or DID throw around the same age. Russell also.
Russell was probably around 3 when he started throwing. Seemed like it would NEVER stop. I could handle it a little more at home, but at a restaurant LMAO, it was QUITE embarrasing to see my little man throwing things WAYYYY to the next table, or hit the waiter!
I read all the posts. MB mentioned really LOOKING as to WHY the child throws. I have to say that looking back, most of Russell's throwing was probably because he was "done" with something.. or didn't want it. MB you make it sound a bit easier than it really is LOL. For Russell, most of his throwing was in the highchair at first. He has reflux and did SO bad, he would have to sit in the chair for a bit after eating to keep his food down. So throwing toys that occupied him was happening. He also would just throw for the heck of it while playing. Again, I could reflect and assume he was done with the toy, but who knows. Some of your kids make sounds and let you know they are done with things. Russell is 6 and is JUST now doing this. So back when he was 3 or so, that was not going on.
We DID try, as much as possible to have him pick the item up if he did throw it. If it happened at home and not in the highchair. But if we were out eating or he was in the highchair for medical reasons, that wasn't an option.
I found that sooner or later, all kids, DS or not, will outgrow and move on to another behavior we equally pull our hair out for! ;D Russell finally DID stop throwing. I personally believe it was on his own terms that he stopped and not because I redirected him or said NO firmly or made him pick it up. His receptive language is SOOOOOOOOOO delayed, even today, that we just have to ride the wave with him, so to speak. In fact, he will now gentlly put food aside when he doesn't want it now... now THAT is progress!
Now.. we are on to hitting, kicking and rough housing! LOL
Good luck
a.
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