Bill Hicks "mongoloid"

[Stan and Harry's Dad]

I'm a fan of Bill Hicks, and i really like what he has to say about politics worldwide. BUT i've just been reading the book just out on his letters, reviews and scripts. He had an ascerbic tongue for authority in the USA, but he did have the unfortunate habit of labelling people to the right of him as "retarded" and - this is where i put the book down - "mongoloid". As a parent of a boy with DS this is deeply offensive. i can't do anything about this because our bill left us in 1994. But i just wonder whether language like that is still in American society. i know you've had discussions on the word "retard" before, but how did Bill think he could get away with "Mongoloid". As a fan of Hicks, but i've now stopped reading the book - i find this fascinating. steve
BILL - come on, fight the right fight!

[wrblack]

Well, yes, you're right. Too late to do anything about Mr. Hick's diction. The "M" word is definitely out of fashion and has been for years. Anyone who uses it is showing themselves to very out of date and/or is being deliberately offensive. I think there are still some nice little old blue-haired ladies who might use the "M" word without meaning any offense, and I'm generally in favor of not taking offense where none was intended. "Mongoloid idiot" was the accepted, approved, medically and scientifically correct term for individuals with Down syndrome up through about the 1950's.
"Retard" and "retarded" can also be quite offensive in common, loose, thoughtless, vernacular American English. I think responsible parents should teach nasty mouthed little brats not to use those words and to have a proper understanding of mental retardation. JMOHO, just mine own humble opinion.
By the way and to digress further, you might like to know I know of a couple in England with two boys, the younger with Down syndrome. Part of the dad's response to the diagnosis of his younger son was to say, "Well, I guess he won't be playing for England then." After he paused and thought for a moment, he added a comment about the elder brother, "But now that I think of it, I don't suppose it's likely that George will be either."
Have a good day.
Regards,
Bob, dad to Charlie (w/ Ds) and Robert (w/out Ds, prospective major league pitcher who works as neurosurgeon in the off season-- or maybe not)

[Stan and Harry's Dad]

bob
great to hear from you. i just thought it was interesting that someone with a great social conscience should use such language. i wouldn't have 10 yrs ago and i had no experience of all things trisomy.
re: your "by the way" - i got really upset when stan was born that he may only stack shelves. my wife said "but what if his older brother wants to stack shelves?" Good point. Where abouts do your friends live?

[Stan and Harry's Dad]

oh - here's a pic of stan - recent

[wrblack]

Had to view properties and cut and paste the link to see that photo, but well worth the effort. Very handsome young man. Looks like a proper footballer to me, but then what do I know. Also looks like he has hair to rival Beckham's but hope he shows better sense and conduct.
I'll try to message you a link to that other family's web site.
Regards,
Bob

[Stan and Harry's Dad]

i've asked the moderators to make the picture a lot smaller!!!
stan may be a footballer but i really want him to be a drummer!
steve

[Alice]

As I know, no one is using this term as for DS in America . It is very old term, and very bad.
I hope some day even term: Down Syndrome will be gone, I prefer: Trisomy 21. Why? Because one very good lady asked me if my child is Down. I said: "Nope he is mine, but he has Down Syndrome".
Also, I can not be upset on people who use that offensive terms, because not long ago I was not educated and involved with DS as I am today.
Alice

BTW, "Mongoloid describes the race of humans primarily from Asia, was one of the four major races as recognized by nineteenth century racial theories. "
(From: www.fact-index.com/m/mo/mongoloid.html)

[victday]

Not commenting on the original subject matter but on the tangential subject matter:

I've oftentimes said that I don't mind it if people who mean no offense (old, misinformed, perhaps from another culture) use the term "mongoloid"; strangely, it offends me (in its most innocent usage, of course) less than "Down syndrome," which grates on my nerves, though I use the term for simplicity myself sometimes. Pardon me for reprinting my opinions from another board.

I do not even like the term "Down syndrome." I wish it would go into the dumpster the way "mongoloid" did. I am doing my part by using "trisomy 21" instead, even though, to be accurate, "t21" is a subset of "Down syndrome," but close enough.
Here are my reasons for dumping the term "Down syndrome":

1. While Dr. Down was just trying to be an enlightened scientist of his day, he inadvertently insulted both those with t21 and Asians by considering them both mentally deficient and lumping them together. (Calling both the Asians and the people with t21 "mongoloids." )

2. Many people have no idea that DS is named after a person and they think it means droopy. Seriously! THey think that the "down" refers to downward development, downward IQ, small physical size... It just generally sounds negative to use the word "down." And to exacerbate that, since the mad cow scare, the general public has become familiar with the term "downer cattle." This brings an association of being very sick to "down." My best friend pointed this out.

3. Getting rid of the "down" will prevent people from saying, "He's a down," or "She's downs." Think about it: to the very uneducated person in the general public (and most are) it sounds very negative. Sure, people may start saying, "She's t21," or "he's a trisomy," (ha ha) but it just doesn't have the same terrible ring to it, IMO. Also, you can confuse people (although that's not really my intent.) If someone totally clueless asks what my daughter "has," I can say that she has a trisomy, or I can say she has trisomy 21. They can go look it up if they want more information, or ask me for more info. If I feel that the situation warrants it, I'll explain, "that is also known as Down syndrome."

There is my essay for my own personal cause of pushing "Down syndrome" out of general usage the way that "mongoloid" went out. I believe that a scientific term sounds more dignified, the same way that someone with Lou Gehrig's disease sounds more dignified with the scientific term, rather than having people call them, "A Gehrig" or a "Gehrig's kid." And Gehrig does not even have the same negative connotation that the word "down" has. Also, t21 is not a disease, and I'm tired of hearing those who have it classified as if they are a particular type of person. Sadly, I grew up thinking (from the limited education I had on the subject from biology textbooks in school) that people with t21 were a subset of human beings who were not quite fully human like the rest of us. It seems to me that a scientific term would confer more respect than the tired old term that, to me, is hardly better than "mongoloid" (Dr. Down, after all, is the person who began the usage of the term "mongoloid.") End of rant!

[lindy]

I never thought I would hear the "M" word ever... I think I have posted this before... but we were at a yard sale and a lady was talking about Jenna and she called her it...

I know that she saw my face lose all color or something. It took a lot for me not to freak out, lol... I told her that term was no longer used. She said that she still used it and I said that it was extremely offensive. She asked what to call it then, and I said Down syndrome... and then she said that was too technical. I told her to call it what it is then.. trisomy 21.

She wasn't that old... maybe 40, and she really is a nice lady. I just try to realize that some people don't and wont know better until I tell them how it is.

[victday]

Yeah, "trisomy 21" is about as technical as you can get, but what's wrong with technical? I guess the lady thought "Down syndrome" was too technical because she wanted to assign a label for the PERSON rather than a label for the syndrome. Of course, I take it a step further and prefer a technical label for the syndrome rather than the well-known label containing someone's name. But most of all, I find a label for the person ("mongoloid" or "a down" or "he's downs") to be the most offensive of all. I didn't mean that I consider it acceptable when very old people use that term; I only meant that I can accept that they might not be aware of any successor to that once-standard term, and I will give them credit for not TRYING to be offensive unless I have evidence otherwise.

I just don't see the need for a vernacular name, such as what "Down syndrome" degenerates into, such as "a down," or "downy" (used in the UK, I believe.) It just rings of denigration to me.

[wrblack]

Yes, I was glad that CHOP (Children's Hospital of Philadelphia) decided to call their recently established clinic their Trisomy 21 Program instead of a Down syndrome clinic. Trisomy 21 and Down syndrome are roughly interchangeable, but technically about 7-8 percent of individuals with Down syndrome don't have the straight, vanilla flavor, garden variety trisomy 21; they have some translocation or mosaicism.
I think there have been conferences in the medical and scientific communities to hash out some of this terminology. I believe currently Down syndrome is the accepted term in the US, whereas Down's syndrome is still accepted in the UK. Maybe someone should convene the apostrophe conference.
I doubt we are going to change anything anytime soon. Some have suggested Up syndrome instead, and others have suggested Einstein syndrome--though Albert Einstein was just a preemie, not trisomic.
How about Uno Mas syndrome? Or should that be unomas syndrome, or possibly lowercased but hyphenated, uno-mas syndrome? Or, maybe, to try to offend everyone, we could call it broccoli syndrome. Or, trying not to offend anyone though not trying to please anyone either, we could call it Chevrolet syndrome.
My 2 1/2 cents,
Bob

[victday]

So people could be called "A Chevy"?

Seriously, though - maybe I'm a hopeless intellectual with an inquashable (just made that word up, I think) sense of curiosity, but I always want to know what is behind ANY condition (knowing what it's called is never enough - I want to know what causes it and exactly how the changes from "normal" are effected), and I think that people should be forced to grapple with a little science. Therefore, I am comfortable telling people my daughter has "trisomy 21" or even "a trisomy" and if they are puzzled, they can go look it up, or even ask me what it means, and I'll be glad to explain, even including in my explanation, "It's oftentimes called Down syndrome." Here's why I think people should be made to think and understand the science behind it: many people who prefer "Down syndrome" or it's predecessor (mongoloid) don't have a clue what causes it, and not understanding the cause makes it easy to reamain ignorant of helpful information (such as the diversity of characteristics among people so affected and the etiology - as in, no, it's not just "caused by the mom being old.") In other words, I feel that understanding the nuts and bolts behind it lends the casual observer to have a more compassionate and respectful view than just "when old moms have babies who are retarded and have squinty eyes." (Yes, there are people who have an understanding of t21 that is THAT rudimentary.)I feel that the use of a colloquial term that eveyone is familiar with but few people understand well encourages ignorance, and while it will never happen in this world that everyone is educated and/or compassionate/respectful, scientific terms are a step in the right direction.

Now, onto the practical: My own pediatrician is the one who introduced the term "trisomy 21" and thus I latched onto it. Then in casual usage he throws out "Down syndrome" but I told him recently that I don't prefer that term (not that I expect everyone will agree with me or say what I prefer to hear - it's their prerogative to say what they want) and now he takes care to revert to his original "trisomy 21." Also, I took my daughter to the hospital for a brief admission and I found that if you are lucky, others take their cues from you. While checking her in I did not mention the trisomy 21 until filling out the "other conditions" section and put it there where it belonged. Miraculously, NO ONE mentioned it out of about a dozen medical professionals encountered during that visit except for one pediatrician who carefully said "trisomy 21" in a relevant context, and only when necessary. I don't know if that was his predilection or whether he picked up on it from reading the chart and seeing "Down syndrome" nowhere on the chart, but I appreciated it.

I only mention this because I've heard horror stories of others going into the hospital and hearing people throw around "Down's kid" along with other comments that go along with it that are oftentimes offensive. I was happy that I faced none of that sort of disrespectful reference.

[victday]

Sorry to be talkin' to myself here, but this semantic issue has gotten me interested, and I found an interesting conversation (darn those Germans; can anyone translate for me?) *never mind, I used one of those cheesy online translators and caught the gist of the conversation. forum.leo.org/archiv/2002_03/13/20020313113147l_en.html

I sort of agree (and sorry for sounding like a heretic) but if I had to choose between "mongoloid" and "Down syndrome" I'd almost prefer the former because there should be no inherent insult in the description for a sub-group of people nor for a group of people who supposedly resemble that subgroup (at least in a few facial characteristics.) As someone in that discussion pointed out, it was Dr. Down who made the implications of inferiority for both groups, and to me, that's where the offense lies.

Back to Bill Hicks, though, since I stuck my nose into this conversation and have not as yet mentioned the original issue: He was obviously using the term pejoratively, and that is always disappointing. On another board someone mentioned the Devo song "Mongoloid" and I can't infer any intent to denigrate anyone from the song lyrics. There is also a Devo cover band in existence named "The Mongoloids" and I have to say that they have a lot of nerve to use such an un-P.C. term in their name. Other than that, I can't comment on any intent they have in choosing that name.

[TriciaF]

Hi guys,

Have been very interested reading this thread. Have to say, I am in South Carolina and my little guy is four and I have never yet encountered the Mong. term. I do cringe and speak up when around people, and yes, family members, who just unknowingly use the slang, Retard, in conversation. That can really set me off. Its never been used to refer to my son, or they might find themselves on the floor before their mouth is closed.

I will suggest gently to people who use the Down syndrome kid/child/man why that can be seen in a bad light. I go easy on them because I don't think they have ever considered their words. I have surely been guilty of the same before I "saw the light".

I will go into a detailed discussion of Trisomy 21, etc... science and all with anyone who seems the least bit honestly interested. I know that since Patrick was born and I have become involved with a multiple special needs Mom's night out group, there is much I have had to learn about autism, pre mature babies, PDD, and many other medical conditions.

I find that more often, I am less likely to go into a discussion of the condition itself as to offer up information that might tear down steriotypes. I will tell people about Jackie's Emily, attending school away from home, about kids I know who are working or reading well, about Karen Gaffney graduating high school and swimming the English channel, about the married couple I met in Atlanta who are buying their own home or the boy across town doing well in an inclusive 5th grade class. I will talk about the full inclusion schools in Georgia (loudly to our education dept in SC ;D) and the boy I know with mosaic Ds that drives and scored a 1300 on his SAT at my former high school. I think the average person will remember these examples long after the science lesson is over and forgotten.

That said, I think I might have a go at trying the Trisomy 21 term first.....aka Ds. LOL Who knows, I might can trick some more poor unsuspecting souls into having to listen to me drone on! A novel I am reading today referred to that as "I could feel a Lurking Lecture". I love it.

[TriciaF]

Oh by the way, I went to the site with the pc discussion in German. Found it interesting that the French commonly use Trisomy.....especially since I just talked to a lady today whose friend has an 8 year old child with Ds that was born in France and she was advised to give the child up. Evidently, the area she was living in was very backward in its view of Ds. I was surprised by this, I assumed France would be on par with the US, Canada, England, Australia etc. Wonder if it was an isolated opinion?