One test - two decisions....

[steffipoo]

and yes after rereading my last post I must be honest here and say that I DID attend the REDUNDANCY SCHOOL OF REDUNDANCY!!!!

[wrblack]

Bad, bad on me. I thought I would stay away from this thread. Not having sense to is one bad. Second bad is stealing something from another board, where I don't have any business anyway, and using it without author's knowledge nor permission--maybe that's worth 3 or 4 more bad's.
Okay, picture yourself 20ish, maybe with a new college degree and a new mortgage and a relatively new husband. And you're working on starting a family. And this is what happens, << It started with my triple screen coming back with a 1:2 risk for Downs syndrome but I tried not to freak out because I know how inaccurate that test can be. Unfortunately, it was right and we found out through a level 2 ultrasound and amnio that the baby did indeed have DS. While we were still reeling form that and trying to decide what we wanted to do-- the perinatologist called and told us that there was a 98% chance that this baby was going to be stillborn at some point. His complications were just too much for him to survive. So our choice became terminate now or wait for the baby to die. ....>>
What are you going to do? Tell Dr. Evil to go do a CVS or PUBS on himself? Tell any and all medical professionals that they collectively and individually don't know what they're talking about, nor their arses from their elbows?
I would be really impressed with anyone who, under the stress and strain of this situation, could just ask intelligent questions and ask for additional information. Asking for a second or third opinion here could either be superhuman or grounds for a competency hearing.
Maybe if you were really, really lucky, you've got a caring, attentive, intelligent, well informed, and not too over worked, OB/GYN, whom you've known and trusted for years. And you can hang up on Dr. Evil, after thanking him and telling him you'll discuss this with your own doctor, and call Dr. Too Good To Be True.
There's been a spate of newspaper stories and TV shows lately about these "new" tests, which have been around for at least two or three years. Unlike some medical ethicists, I still haven't figured out the rights and wrongs of some of these life and death decisions.
Now to steal something I hope it's okay to steal, I still like the note on Dr. Leshin's essay on prenatal testing, www.ds-health.com/prenatal.htm <<The subject of prenatal testing for Down syndrome is an emotionally charged one. I am presenting this essay as a guide to parents who are faced with the prenatal tests offered by their doctor. If your fetus has been diagnosed as having Down syndrome or is simply at high risk, please spend some time to learn more about the condition.>>
I do worry about some people making not well informed decisions. And for those people who think they would never terminate any pregnancy under any circumstances and that it is not only the wrong decision but clearly morally reprehensible. Okay, you're entitled to your opinion. I just hope you don't hold such strong opinions that you go around shooting doctors through their kitchen windows. And by the way, what would you have done if you had gotten a diagnosis of anencephaly instead of trisomy 21? -- Just my $.02, though maybe I spent $1.98 here, Bob

[Chris]

Christie,

I have a question for you........Is murder right or wrong? How about stealing? Adultry? Lying? What about having sex with a child? Let's even hit closer to home, what about someone who fondles a child with Ds?

If you answered wrong then by your own definition you are being judgemental, K?

By logic and reasoning, when a woman "chooses" to end a pregnacy, the baby who was growing inside her was killed. If that cell, tissue, fetus, baby or whatever you want to call it wasn't aborted, he would be born. Guess what? That cell, tissue, fetus, or baby will be a baby! Christie, prove me wrong! I really can't for the life of me understand why aborting a baby is a "choice" when killing a person is wrong? It's not a judgement, it is pure and simple logic.

Bob, By the way, no matter what my diagnosis may have been, I would have continued my pregnancy, even if the child would have died at birth. I was 16 weeks pregnant when we first suspected that my baby would have Ds. By 18 weeks it was confirmed by an amnio. At 20 weeks we found that she had an AV canal defect. I had gestational diabetes and had morning sickness the entire pregnancy. I never ever considered aborting my daughter because I believe with my whole heart and mind that it is murder. I used to get irritated when people would say they "admired" my decision to keep my child. It made me feel very uncomfortable because I would think, why would anyone admire someone for not killing their child?

Chris

[momofrussell]

Well, not to jump in and add fuel to the fire, because that isn't my intent.. but that question is a BIT obtrusive to me...and somewhat of a loaded question...

I mean.. we talking murder in the CLASSIC sense like pre-medatated, Murder 1?

Murder as in someone came into my home with a gun and raped me at gunpoint so I STABBED him to defend myself and he died?

Murder as in euthenasia... either an animal or Kevorkian style?

Murder as in a DEATH ROW INMATE that just got his/her dose of leathal injection because he/she MURDERED someone/s?

OR... are you JUST talking about ABORTION?

And... if you are talking about Murder, how do you differenciate between killing and murder, or is it all the same?

Because seriously folks, MURDER has just as many variables....

;D

A.

[christie]

Chris,

Hmmm last I heard abortion is legal and Murder is NOT soooo I am really not sure where you are going with that ? Sooo are you saying that every Mom, Dad that agree to an abortion and any Doctor that performs an abortion is a murderer?? Hmmmm why are they not in jail then?? It is legal, check out the laws.

In answer to some of your other ?'s YES many of what your asked ARE against the law and yes I do feel if a crime was committed the person that committed it should have to pay the consequenses BUT we can argue til the cows come home and the facts are abortion is legal.

As I said you are very much entitled to your opinion of not believeing in or likeing abortion but to be so black and white on the subject without knowing the individual situations, YES I do find that Judging another.

Not that it matters at all BUT I myself have never had an abortion BUT there is nooo way I would be so hard with my thoughts or words as you are on someone that has taken that route. I truly believe my GOD would be more understanding of each and every situation

Plus may I add I am not the only one here that posted we should not judge others, seems you have missed that

THANKS A~, Yes I do have a full plate at the moment and I am thinking I may just take your pass from UNO LOLOL

I was telling Colin bout this thread and he says what do you care, you haven't had an abortion and I told him YES I know BUT I personally would hate to see any one come here and read and feel we are ones to judge others. To me this should be a safe place for support, NOT being told what we did WRONG or what one THINKS we did was "wrong".

And not for nothing Chris but your original post follows A's post right from the heart and I felt you words were a bit harsh.

CC

[TriciaF]

Oh boy......I too have been avoiding this post. I have strong opinions on the issue of abortion....but don't think that it would do any of us any good for me to relate them here....especially in this heated climate.

That said....it really does bother me quite abit that so many children with Ds are aborted after pre natal diagnosis. I do find it offensive that people would abort a child based soley on the Ds. And, I worry that they are being given biased info, or scary info or having to make knee jerk decisions based on a really short time table. Perhaps a very early diagnosis, like those involved with CVS, may actually reduce the number of abortions on Ds diagnosis, because with more time, the parents may be able to overcome some of the fear of the unknown and weigh the opinions they are given and do their own research (like the family did in Chosing Naia).

Anyway, could we all just agree to disagree or whatever and remember we have more in common than different? We all love our children with Ds, wouldn't have it any other way, don't like it when the big bad world out there picks on our precious children out of ignorance and prejudice. And that is the personal way we see these abortions based on diagnosis, as the world's commentary on the value of our children's lives. Should I take it personally.....why not....some things in life you just gotta take on. But....I am preaching to the choir here. LOL

Please, I love it when we discuss issues....even the sticky ones.....it always has amazed and thrilled me that people will open up their hearts here. However, hearts bruise. Everyone has the right to their opinion........everybody breath .

Steff: I love your story about Olivia in the park. The pastor of the church I visited Sunday had a message about how God speaks to us through other people all our lives and we need to recognize and listen. It seems to me that you and Olivia and Jeff and Kyle have always had lots to say to the world....and at least some of them are listening

[Connie]

I like Tricia F have very strong opinions on abortion but I will not share them here.

I am glad this site is here so that we can support, share, care and even disagree with each other, that's what makes this nation so great...We can do these things.

But, with that being said...I as a moderator am going to lock this thread because I feel that it can lead to nothing but hurt and anger.

Connie