What's your opinon on this IEP goal?

[Chester]

I had JT's IEP meeting this a.m. His teacher told me that she would like one of his goals to be to SAY all of the colors. He can sign them appropriately, but she wants him to VERBALIZE them (ummmm me too, wish it were that easy, write it as a goal and it happens?!) She said the only one he says is blue (guess he love's b's take it from the mom he calls Bob, yes I'm being a total smart alec right now!)

I asked a few questions then let it stay as an IEP goal. It seems rather "blank" to me. He knows his colors, so lets move on, his speech will have to catch up is my thought. But like I said I let it stay, because I don't think it was worth the effort and it won't hurt JT.

So what are you suppose to do in a situation like that?

Oh, another interesting discussion. The school district special ed director said there is new research out saying that children shouldn't learn sign or use augmenative communication modes if we want them to communicate. We should really just focus on verbal. I went through the whole, I don't want JT to learn sign, we're using it WITH verbal and WITH augmenative, etc. She wanted sign to be taken out of the IEP. It got left in, because I wasn't backing down on that one yet.

I am going to email her and ask her to share her new research. Anyone else familiar with that?

Oh, and I did take in the sheet about "elopement" (wandering). They LOVED it and are going to instate some new district wide policies that will benefit all kids.

Overall, I'm okay with it. I can tell I'm going to have to get my ducks in a row for January when we meet again to discuss JT's Kindergarten placement.

Dawn

[momofrussell]

for the color goal.. my question to them would be "how are you going to follow out this goal and/or implement it?" That is a valid question and they should be ready to answer that. And then hopes they don't say "I dont' know we are working on it" LOL I have a friend who's daughter's goals were really vague this year. She ask the same question and they dind't have alot of answers.. YET. WTH? Russell's goals, although primative and behind most other kids, even those half his age, are pretty specific at the moment. But more and more are going to vague goals. Not sure I am digging on this.

Then my next thought on this goal would be... is it truly JUST verbalizing the color? I.E. "RED", "BLUE", ect..or will they actually challenge him since technically he KNOWS his colors... learn "blue car", "red apple", ect? Can he match a red circle to a red apple? How has he learned the colors thus far? Can you mix it up and he still knows them? If he truly knows his colors but they want it verbalized.. I suppose it would be a good ST goal...any verbal goal is good if that is where your child is at. For me, that wouldn't be considered appropriate for Russell, KWIM? If he could JUST SIGN the colors or identify them and show us he truly knew the colors SOME HOW.. I'd be down with that! I'd maybe give them a few months and see how the goal goes and then maybe assess if it needs to be redone, taking out, ect.

as far as that "research" on signing and/or aug comm getting the way? That's nothing new to me! Back when Russell was 5 sand 6 yrs old we addressed using a speech device and they said the same thing...it's truly for a child that will NEVER talk. At the time Russell's dual DX was still a year or so new and for some reason our teacher, even though she was AWESOME, looked at Autism and Russell differently and didn't address that he truly may never talk. So, she discouraged me from then and we kept on with the PECS. Um.. he is 8 and STILL has never said a darn thing!!! Oh the things we learn at our children's expense!

This is one of the times I think the parent knows better... go with your gut Chester! There are plenty of "studies" on both sides the fence that claim it hinders or helps. Just depends on what camp you want to be in. I'd be asking them to show you specific studies. BUT... the flip side is if it's a true studied theory and it DOES work (i.e. total communication or aug comm devices) you can just as easily prove it can be used for JT. How does JT do if you work on JUST verbal speech? Does he get frusterated? That would be my main thing... making sure he is learning and working on his verbal speech if it's there but making sure he isn't getting frusterated. That won't solve much if he is getting frusterated and not working on his goals because he is ONLY doing verbal speech and can't and needs another form of communcation. KWIM?

I think choosing a for of communication/s for your child to learn at school is based on each child. I have read that PECS hinder some kids, for kids like Russell, he needs it all. And technically, other then speech, it's all an aug comm from what I have learned... be it signing, PECS, ect. Just alternatives. Verbal speech is only part of it, in my world.

And remember.. my 2 cent opinions are just that and based on my years with Russell and reading these boards so my take is probably different then the next guy!

Good luck!!! And I am glad you are overall OK with the IEP. THAT helps out alot! Little things can be tweaked and worked on through the year. You don't need to really solve the world in a day, so to speak, at the IEP.

A.

[Emilysmom]

Dawn,
I say phooey on their "new" research! I heard those same things when Emily (now 15) was 2 years old. Fortunately, we had a great ST who firmly disagreed with that research and we taught Emily enough signs to get by until she started talking more. If anything, I wish we had pushed her to learn MORE signing! I don't think there is any research to show that a child who learns signs will continue to stick to that method of expressing himself even after he is able to verbalize. I do think signing allows the child to express his needs, and therefore not get so frustrated and misbehave. You were so right to insist on leaving it in his IEP.

I also tend to agree with you on the colors too. I mean.........of all words he needs to verbalize; WHY colors??? Why not focus on his own name, the name of his parents, his school, his address? Those things would be more useful to him if he came across someone who did not know sign language. If he got into danger and needed help, he could say "red and blue" clearly and still not get a bit of help. Doesn't seem like a very helpful goal to me.

Susan

[meghans_mom]

I dont know...do they really know whether or not sign/aug comm helps or impedes?
Meghan had a huge signing vocab, I mean like when a typical child at 2 1/2 should have say 150 spoken words, Meghan had an equal amount in sign (I made up those numbers, cause I don't remember what it was) -- now at 5 1/2 she is behind in her spoken word but she does put together pretty good sentences, etc. Much of MMs problem is oral-motor...so I don't see how signing would have harmed her there.
That being said....I totally agree with A about the colors -- its great to want to have him speak them, but I dont neccesarily see that it has to be an actual IEP goal. He should know his colors backwards and forwards, etc.

Oh, and what sheet on elopement are you talking about? Meghan has a little trouble with that (lol) and I'm not thrilled w/ the districts answer to me...plus now 2 afternoons a week I am picking her up and she has to wait 20 mins for...they expect her to sit on the bench near the front door and wait all that time...ain't gonna happen....there's just a door monitor to watch her. You know my girl is going to be taking off....
there are other issues as well w/ this so would love to see something in writing I can show them. thanks!
and good luck - laurie

[Jessie]

I say "Bullsh*t, Bullsh*t, Bullsh*t" to any "new" study about kids not verbalizing if they are taught sign or some alternate method of communicating. Jason, who has unintelligible speech? The words he does say are the ones that he USED to sign. There are some "professionals" that still look at sign language as gibberish and simply hand gestures, vs. a recognized language that it is and the useful tool it can be for some of our kids.

There, I'm off my soapbox now.

Jessie

[Chester]

www.kcdsg.org/files/content/February%20March%202006%20Inclusion%20Solutions.pdf#search=

Laurie~Here's the link to the elopement article. It's on the second page of the newsletter. Umm, good luck with MM waiting 20 minutes on the bench...is she supervised?! I wouldn't expect any ol'Kindergartner to be able to do that on their own!

A~ you've got me thinking. I don't know if any of JT's goals had a "how we'll meet the goal". Some had measurements....5 out of 4 times or 75% of the time. But not really the how. Oh dear.

Susan~Exactly what I was trying to think of, but my mind was too busy at the time.....yes, he can say his name, but how about a phone number, address, teachers name, etc. That's what I was trying to think of but all I could think of is, "we've got colors mastered how about shapes, letters, vegetables, anything", but that's not what I wanted either.

Jessie~ stand on your soap box any time. It's good to hear others opinions!

I'm glad I didn't let her take signing out of JT's IEP. It didn't feel right at all. I don't care what the research says, signing has made JT able to communicate to a higher level. I believe that, but it's hard to stack your belief up to their "research" sometimes. I've got it on my list to email her today to get a copy of her "research".

Can't you all come to the IEP meeting with me next time?

Dawn

[meghans_mom]

Dawn, thank you soooo much for the link! I'm gonna print it right now.

And, yeah, MM is pretty much unsupervised...ain't gonna happen!

-L.

[momofrussell]

Chester.. how the goal will be implemented does NOT have to be on the IEP.. they won't write that part.. .BUT.. it needs to be asked on vague goals. I hope I didn't scare you into thinking they should be writing something on the IEP they aren't. Sorry if I did. But, you CAN ask and they SHOULD have an answer. They shouldn't be writing goals they don't have a plan for. Or work with the team to come up with a good plan for JT.

I love what Susan said about verbalizing addy, phone number, ect.. I think THAT is a more appropriate goal then colors.

Oh... and Chester... I am trying to get to an educator's conference in IL next month that the DSA is helping to put on . It's called "Are we there yet: Paths toward more effective communication for students with disabilties". It's a full day event and in there, there is a break out session called "An intro to AAc Features and Strategies". It says - Augmentative and Alternative communication (AAC), such as communication boards and voice output devices, are often used to help persons with DD develop their SPEECH and Lang skills.....

SOOOO this goes to show you that on this side of the fence, they say it DOES promote speech and lang. If I go and pick up some papers.. I can send them your way if need be!

A.

[Chester]

I am a bit nervous now, I think a bunch of his goals are way way too vague. I'm not going to lose sleep over it, guess this was the trial run getting ready for school next year. Thanks for helping me learn! I will be asking HOW they are planning on meeting some of the goals. It seems like the "how" part should be written somewhere. The outcome is really so very little of the goal.

Hope you get to go to the workshop in IL. I'd appreciate any papers that you find that support "THE research" one way or the other.

Thanks a ton!

Dawn

[Kristin]

I don't know if its true for all IEPs but in our stater (CA) the goals have to be measurable. Like "is able to verbalize 3 of 5 color names by January, and 5/5 color names by June. That takes some of the vagueness out of the IEP goals. I'd ask how they will measure the progress, too. Kristin

[Pat]

Dawn, The research is far from "new". I remember that 30 years ago when I worked at a deaf school. They thought you shouldn't let deaf kids sign either. Need I say more. LOLOL I have never seen it hinder speech because a person signs. The deaf school I worked at was a total communication school, so signing & verbal.
Soon after John-John was born I recieved a pamphlet in the mail (I forget from which group) saying the same thing. I think they sent it to the wrong mom!
I wish all Sp Ed teachers would sign all the time JMHO. Kids learn in many ways. Why would you not use all of them to help a child communicate & not be frustrated? Stand your ground.
Pat

[momofrussell]

Besides the fact.. isn't things like signing a form of a "language" so to speak? What's the difference if we teach our little ones Spanish or signing?? To me it's JUST one more wonderful thing to learn! And not only can you learn to communicate YOUR needs, you can learn to communicate with others that "speak" other languages

A.

[Pat]

I also teach John-John Spanish & a little Japanese. No joke. When he was little if you wanted a kiss or him to look at something you had to tell John-John in Spanish. LOLOL
Pat

[steffipoo]

HI!!!!! I so agree with A and the vague goals. Now as a speech goal he could have to say colors names out loud perhaps starting with the first consonant of each color as he points to it? But really he knows his colors so why not expand on that. Like A said. Let's go further with the colors. How about matching colors? Using correct colors on appropriate pictures? So many ways to expand on what he already knows? Why be redundant with the same goal? The saying of em should be a speech goal not a learning goal. Sheesh.I'll be right back and share some goals for the colors after I am done here K??? HUGS Steff

[Chester]

I'd love to see some of you goals Steff! I know you've got a lot going on right now. Whenever is just fine.

Dawn