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Post by ladybugsc on Aug 26, 2007 22:02:08 GMT -5
My son is only three so I have a couple more years before we go to public school, but I am just curious.
I just became the president of our local Down syndrome group and in the last couple of months I have talked to more and more families in my area. And just so you know the population of the city and county is approximately 150,000 people. Now, it doesn't always come up in the conversation and I seldom come out and ask, but I am finding that no one has a child in an inclusive classroom. If someone shares this with me it is always that their child is self contained.
Okay. Well this afternoon I spoke with a mom that has a 7 or 8 year old with Ds and for several years now she has worked at the local center for developmental services. This lady seems to know everyone. I know that's an exaggeration, but she knows a lot of people in the community with Down syndrome. Anyway, we were talking because I would like to have a teen with Ds speak at the Buddy Walk. She made a suggestion and then added "He'll do a great job. He has done very well and is the only child I know that has been in an inclusion classroom."
I let this comment pass me by until I got off the phone with her and then I got to thinking about it and my conversations with other parents. and then I got to thinking about a conversation I had earlier in the summer with a friend on mine that has a pre-teen with DS. I had no idea her son was self contained. I have always thought him to be so high functioning.
I'll be honest, here I am feeling like my bubble has been burst. Is it the same in other areas? Do very few people with Ds achieve inclusion? Does the school board keep statistics?
I will admit...I am not completely sure the extent of self contained here. I guess it could mean that children are in a self contained class room, but go to a room with typical peers for art and music and a few other classes or it could mean they never leave that classroom.
Sorry about my ramblings....
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Post by laurasmom on Aug 26, 2007 22:04:34 GMT -5
I think it depends on the area. When we lived in Alabama, our school was a total inclusion school. We moved to where we live now, and it is very rare to have a child in inclusion, the big belief here is in mainstreaming. It took me several IEP's (along with asking a school psychologist to leave our IEP), to get them to understand the difference.
Sharon
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Post by CC on Aug 26, 2007 22:46:56 GMT -5
"My son is only three so I have a couple more years before we go to public school" Hmmm where will your son be going to pre-school?? Public School is a choice just so you know "I had no idea her son was self contained. I have always thought him to be so high functioning. " Hmmm just so you know, ones being in self contained or private school just for ones with special needs in NOOO way means they can not be high functioning Are you aware of Chris Burke and his schooling?? It all comes down to what is right for your child the "I" in the IEP, KWIM?? If you think full inclusion is the right thing and the best way for your child then you can go that route, no matter what We have it all in our area which is New Jersey, we have full inclusion , mainstreamed, self contained in the public school and private schools for ones with exceptional needs. Again its all in the "I" in the IEP... Just remember, don't let your "bubble has been burst" what matters is the right placement for the child and they will then fly Just my thoughts CC ~
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Post by Emilysmom on Aug 27, 2007 6:31:21 GMT -5
My daughter was almost fully included from kindergarten to 7th grade. Her main classroom was always a "typical" classroom. I really felt there was a big difference between her being "just one of the kids" in that classroom and occasionally going out for ST or maybe some extra help with math, versus being in a full time self contained classroom and trying to go IN to a "regular" classroom and have the kids accept her as a member of their classroom for short periods of time. Part of the reason it worked out so well for her is that she has always had an aide...............although I never wanted the aide to be "velcroed" to her side. The aide also helped other kids too. But that extra support was enough to help Emily to succeed in the regular classroom for so many years. If I had to do it all over again, I believe we'd push to do exactly the same thing. When she started in 7th grade, and so much of the work became much harder, she still went to a "regular" home room, Social Studies, Science, lunch, library, and "Encore (Music or PE or health; whatever they were offering for that quarter), but went twice a day to a self contained classroom for extra help with Math and reading comprehension/grammar. Her other services (PT/OT/ST) were done when she was in the self contained class, or she was pulled from there to do those therapies.
It truly is very individualized. To me, that's an exciting thing.............you don't have to just accept that EVERY child with Ds will be in a self contained classroom, and you don't have to assume that EVERY child with Ds MUST be fully included in order to succeed. You know your child, and you know how she learns best. The assumption is that she WILL be included. The IEP team will have to show reasons why she CAN'T function well in an inclusive environment. I think I'd want to try inclusion first, with the proper supports, before assuming she needs more of a secluded environment.
I think it's good that you're weighing all the options while your child is still in preschool..........the years pass by SO quickly!! Another thing we did, because our daughter didn't turn 5 until late July, was to hold her back in pre-K an extra year. She didn't start kindergarten till she had just turned SIX. And, after doing one year of private kindergarten (only 8 kids in the classroom), we decided to let her do another year of kindy at our local school because of the difference in the amount of help she'd get from her teacher with 26 kids in the class. So, she has just entered 9th grade at the age of 16. But, she has always been the same size as all the other kids in her class, so it didn't seem to matter.
Please let us know if we can help!!
Susan
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Post by Chris too on Aug 27, 2007 8:14:22 GMT -5
Ladybug, I want to echo CC's question about preschool. If your son is already 3, then you should already have an IEP in place with the local school district. Did you get early intervention services? In IN they help facilitate the transition in that they ask your permission to initiate the IEP process by informing the school system of your child's existance and that he may be eligible for special education services. No matter where you place your child for preschool (even home), you can get special ed services for him through the school system as his individual needs dictate. I also want to echo the reminder that the I in IEP means Individual. It includes as much customization as your child needs to be able to receive an "equivalent" education to what other public school students receive. I recommend that you read either a copy of title 7 (the IDEA) or a good paraphrase of it. I hope that you continue posting through the years about your journey through this process, because I love to read as many permutations of it as I can so I too can prepare for my child's future. For us it will not include public school after pre-school - all my kids are homeschooled, so Stevie will be fully included when she enters kindy Chris too
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Post by stefaniedwn on Aug 28, 2007 17:49:45 GMT -5
Hi, I have a 7 year old little boy with DS. I am having trouble getting him included in his school. I have been fighting for over one year to get him an aide for as needed. Right now he goes to MMI class a half a day and Kindergarten a half a day, and I fill he needs all day Kindergarten. He is repeating Kindergarten this year because they didn't get him ready for first grade. I don’t care for how the teacher ,teaches the class. It’s like she don’t have high expectations for the kids. Right now he does One hour Kindergarten, then back to MMI then back to Kindergarten for lunch and then back to MMI class, and then back to Kindergarten for playtime and then back to MMI class and then again back to kindergarten for Libary,gyn,and music. Believe it or not he does really well changing classes like this. I do have a State complaint filed against the school for a few things.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to fight to get inclusion? or for an aide?
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Post by Chester on Aug 28, 2007 18:19:07 GMT -5
I just attended a Wrights Law seminar....awesome.
They gave us two of their books, which are going to be attending every future IEP meeting with me. "From Emotions to Advocacy", is one of the books, "Special Education Law" is the other. He walked us through how to use the books.
If I remember correctly, Mr. Wright said that no where in the laws is inclusion mentioned, he recommends sticking with the wording "Least Restrictive Environment"
def of LRE: "legal requirement to education children with disabilities in general education class rooms with children who are not disabled to the maximum extent possible.
def of inclusion: an effort to make sure students with disabilities go to school with their friends and neighbors, while also receiving the "specially designed instruction and support" they need to achieve high standards and succeed as learners.
Dawn
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Post by momofrussell on Aug 28, 2007 20:20:10 GMT -5
Yes Chester.. the "From Emotions to Advocacy" book is the one I am ALWAYS plugging!!! It's the BESTEST book!!!
And yes.... "inclusion" is just another way of looking at LRE... but the law does read like Dawn wrote it... which, in turn means "inclusion" for lots of kids!
A.
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Post by victoriasdad on Aug 28, 2007 20:34:36 GMT -5
victoria started preschool through our school district at three yrs old, she had three years of preschool and has started kindergarten this year.... the state of idaho requires the school dist. to provide preschool at three years old...... funny how states vary , once at a ds association meeting a new couple from portland oregon said oregon offers hardly any services and when they came to idaho they were amazed at all the programs and services they could recieve... idaho must be pretty progressive,,, we invented the television after all lol
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Post by Chester on Aug 28, 2007 21:59:24 GMT -5
A~ had recommended the "From Emotions to Advocacy" book awhile back. Wish I would have picked it up sooner.
It really is a must have!
Keep us posted! Dawn
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Post by Jackie on Sept 1, 2007 15:09:45 GMT -5
Emily is a veteran of mostly inclusion. First of all I think it's important for every one to remember that there is no really right or really wrong way to educate your child. Every child is different...what worked for me...might not work for you and vice versa.
I have always been confused by the term "total inclusion"...it is used by those who have their kids in the regular classrooms with aides ,mentors, and special supports and also by those who profess that their kids were able to do it entirely on their own like typical kids.
I have to confess that when Em was young and beginning school my goal was for her to be an exception...to be able to do this all on her own. NOT!....but I was also a pioneer in the concept of mainstreaming and later in "inclusion" so I felt the need to make a point of not placing her in a self contained classroom...which she really never was.
I have also posted here that I felt that the path we took compromised her academic learning but that it gave her tremendous social skills and the ability to adapt to many situations. Emily is a quiet person with good conversational skills. However she is not the initiator of conversations usually and I have always wondered if that's ...JUST EMILY ...or if it' s the result of spending most of her academic life with others who spoke better and faster not allowing her time to process.
One of the earliest mainstream/inclusive advocates was a man named Lou Brown. He maintained that he and his people could find a job for just about anyone. He always advised putting our kids in a classroom next to "the best and the brightest". We did just that with Em thru elementary school. It was easy to identify a student mentor and with no complaints from the parents because it meant their child would always get the best choice of teachers in a system where we could not say who we wanted to teach our kids each year.
I think inclusion went well in elementary school. She did have a reading teacher in the sped classroom that she spent an hour or so with a day all the way through. (I believe they called this ...pull out back then)
In middle school the inclusion was harder but I think it was still such a new concept that the teachers really tried. We found some creative ways for her to get the help she needed...like through the special reading labs that were really for kids who were grade level in everything except their reading. I agreed to an hour or two of resource in the LD classrooms until I went up one day and found her in the back of that classroom with an aide...doing things that were not really very academic.
In HS it was pretty much the same...she did have some classes in the LD sped classrooms and in science and history classes she was in a class that had a co-teacher for her and about five others who needed more help on projects and labs. Her junior year she got on a vocational track that was for students not college bound and ones that needed some extra academic help.
I will say that in HS I worried about her being out there like the "cheese standing alone" while all her good buds from special olympics and such were in a functional self contained classroom...but by then it was HER choice not to join them and she was pretty vocal when I brought it up.
If I could do it all over again I would make sure there was more academic support for her in the typical settings (she never had an aide ever in the regular classrooms) and I would have tried to have her spend more time with kids who were her "real" friends...the kids she still knows now as an adult.
Jackie mom to emily 27
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Post by Jackie on Sept 2, 2007 8:29:11 GMT -5
I am sorry...I skipped one part of your post..."how common?"
I think it is not as common now to find kids with ds in inclusion as it was 10 years or so ago when the concept was newer and a hot topic.
When Em was beginning her school years ...classes in educational advocacy were everywhere. The approach was that of "activism" and we parents were fired up. We had to fight for everything. Now days its more common place and I think parents are more complacent than they used to be...not all.....but many. I am worried that once again the schools are getting into the 'driver's seat'...not we parents. Each parent has to stay in there and insist on what they want for their child. Here I see many just playing follow the leader and more and more self containment for kids who would benefit from just the opposite.
With Em I found that I got pretty much what I asked for...but I had to learn how to ask.
Jackie
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Post by laurasnowbird on Sept 7, 2007 7:39:22 GMT -5
Ethan is fully included at this point, because we feel this to be the most appropriate placement for him now. I would echo what Dawn said about using the words "least restrictive environment" rather than inclusion.
Another big no-no, don't go into an IEP talking about the "best" placement for your child....you aren't guaranteed "best" placement, but you are guaranteed least restrictive with appropriate supports and services.
We have made great use of the "From Emotions to Advocacy" book over the years. I attended a Wrightslaw seminar in Feb. of '04, while Ethan was still in early intervention. (He was only 2) I was quite comfortable with part C of IDEA, but overwhelmed by Part B, and that was coming up for us when he turned three. It was some of the best money we've spent, and became waaay more valuable once we started to doing IEPs rather than IFSP's.
The most effective way to get the services you want is to demonstrate the NEED. Never go into an IEP saying "I want speech three days a week", or "I want a full-time aide", but rather show your child's need. It is up to the school to meet the need that you demonstrate. If your child is a flight risk, say so, and make them aware of the potential safety issue. If they need help toileting, say so. If they are at risk on the playground, point it out. And any time that you ask for a change in placement or services, if the answer is no, tell the school you want "prior written notice" of their intent to deny your request. If you don't get it, send them a certified letter, document the request you made, and specify in writing that you want prior written notice of their intent to deny. Don't budge from this one....it is one of the most powerful tools in your arsenal.
We prepare a document that I ask the team to append to his IEP called the Present Level of Performance. In that document, I talk about Ethan's academic abilities, his functional skills, any medical issues that may impact performance, any safety issues, etc. We specifically pointed out that to benefit from his education he needs to be attending to what the teacher says, and he does not do that well at this point.(although the little fart did it perfectly on the first day, LOL!) We requested a full-time aide to make sure that he stays on track and receives the full benefit from his instruction. We expressed some safety concerns. We mentioned that he needs help with toileting. We got the aide.
The Emotions to Advocacy book tells you how to interpret test scores. While Ethan has made great strides with his speech, his test scores show that the gap between him and his peers is becoming larger. We were able to use that information and the comparison of the test scores to get him 6 hours of speech a week. Only one of those is a pull-out, the rest of the time the ST is in his room facilitating conversation and speech in groups.
I've found that the school folks are really great at trying to make light of test scores when YOU are using them, but quick to jump on them if they feel it suits their purpose, LOL! When we discussed our concerns about the lengthening gap, they said "Oh, but that only shows a snapshot in time, and Ethan is doing so much better than the test shows....yadda, yadda, yadda. True, but the gap is still getting larger, KWIM? Use those scores, they will help you tremendously. Ask for evaluations, and compare them to the evals done in prior years.
I have a great working relationship with Ethan's school....but my husband always refers to my style as a "velvet glove covering a fist of steel", LOL!! In other words, I am always nice, I assume that people are going to do their best, we offer lots of praise when things are done appropriately. But even though all that is true, I never walk into an IEP unprepared. I always take my notebook with IDEA 2004 in it, and it has lots of sticky notes in plain view. I always casually open it and go through a few things as we are preparing, and I have a copy of my state's complaint procedure and the form in the pocket in the front. I NEVER threaten anything, but the fact that I'm prepared and load my guns tells the school that I won't make threats, I'll take ACTION.
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Post by meghans_mom on Sept 18, 2007 19:37:31 GMT -5
my daughter, meghan (6 1/2) is in an inclusion class. (1st grade) last year she was completely mainstreamed w/ an aide - as that was all the district had available, unless we wanted to send MM out of district. For 1st grade, i feel MM will be fine in an inclusion setting, and that's what i felt was appropriate for her. We'll see what the future holds. I am not pro-one way or the other, I feel it is what the parents want and feel is appropriate for the child - it doesn't always have to be a sign of how well the child 'functions'...some days i feel like maybe MM would be better off in self contained. Each has its own challenges, plusses and minuses. Most of my friends kids w/ DS are in self contained classrooms...and I know lots of them (we come from a prechool of 250+ kids w/ DS) - however our area has 2 amazing school districts with programs geared towards kids w/ DS - these programs are designed entirely around them.... so it depends on what the school districts have in place, what the child needs, and what the parents want...lots of things. laurie
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Post by Kaylis on Oct 20, 2007 10:56:55 GMT -5
Wow, Laurie. You sound like you're in some sort of heaven up there on Long Island. Here in Southwestern VA the population is much smaller and so are the choices. We live in a county that has one special ed preschool class (yes, for the whole county) that mixes all sorts of issues/disabilities together. Mikah attended this summer to give it a chance. Even though I loved the teacher, he isn't attending now for a variety of reasons. The K+ grades seem a combination of separate classrooms and some mainstreaming. The neighboring county does almost exclusively inclusion, and actually provides a much larger base of services. That's where Mikah attends daycare and where his brother goes to a parent coop private school (k-8). I really wish the school districts still had to cover out-of-district programs, but I've been told they don't. If they did I'd find some way to get him into the other county's programs. What further got me was I was fairly sure I wanted Mikah to attend his brother's school with aides (local college students in special ed or something similar), but when I found out the local public school forbids ANY hugging or other physical contact between kids or kids and teachers I was absolutely sure I didn't want him there. Now I have almost two years to work out the supports he might need.
Karen
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