another posting about cruel comments

[kimclmnt]

This post also goes along with some of the other post lately. I was not ready for the cruel world nor did I know that some people can be so cruel to our children.
I was working VBS this past week at a church my family has been visiting, We are looking for a church closer to our house, I haven't really felt welcome at this church, but they have alot of kids my kids age. Some members have made comments about Elisabeth and how could I have another baby, am pregnant now, after having a Downs baby. Anyway I agreed to give it one more chance and teach at VBS this past week after it was over on Thursday I was aproached by the preacher about baptising my 3 kids. I told him that I wanted my kids to make that desision on thier own, they are 5,3, and 2, when they were old enough. He didn't stop with my decision he went on to say, How can you know when children like Elisabeth can make that desision on her own. He thinks DS children will never be mentally able to make decisions on their own. I was floored I couldn't say much and really kept it in for 2 days. I finally decided to tell my best friend that goes to that church and my family. My husband of course blew it off, my friend was upset but wants me to go to the preacher and still attend church there and my parents are livid. This pastor has been around Elisabeth for a year, his daughter was in my oldest daughter class this past year, and he knows Elisabeth is doing well and is very smart and for him to come off saying this comment was very upsetting to me.
My question is should I blow it off and go back where my kids can be at this church with other kids or go to the pastor and tell him how I feel and never darken the doors again and go somewhere else? Is this something we will have to deal with alot? I have not seen much of the negative and cruel side of people towards Elisabeth but am starting to now and I am not ready for it!

Kim

[jennanne]

Both my husband and I are Christians(baptized) and belong to a Christian church. Our church believes that children should choose to be baptized when they understand the what it means to be baptized as opposed to the parents deciding for them. We also believe that baptism is essential. My son Matthew is 7 now and I do wonder if he will ever understand the meaning of baptism as our family and church does. I believe that God takes everything into consideration and has a special place in His heart for people who are unable to understand His love and glory.

I personally would not belong to a church that would make negative comments about my unborn child, my decision to have a child or any current child of mine. I feel the preacher was out of line and I would tell him so . I just could not attend a church with such a negative and crass attitude towards a child. If you can't feel love and acceptance at your church then there is a problem.

The church we attend actually has a program for disabled children and they do a wonderful job.

[christie]

I would suggest, if you really like this church and the people in it, after you calm down, go back and talk with the preacher. I am a Big believer "Communication" is the key and my bet he has noooo idea how upset you were over this or that you were upset at all. Might be worth giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one, just my thoughts

I am not saying in this case, but I do believe we as parents of a disabled child tend to take things as if they were meant in the wrong way. Geez I know I have a few times and found out what I thought the person meant they didn't. But wouldn't have known that if we didn't commuicate

And yes, sad to say there are cruel people in this world but most are kind and good I beleive

CC

[Emilysmom]

Again.....this is yet another case of people simply not knowing what to expect from kids with Ds, and out of their ignorance they expect WAY too little!! Before Emily was born, one person tried to reassure me by saying "she will be the only one of all your kids who you won't have to worry about.......she will definitely go to Heaven". At the time, I knew what he meant and tried not to be offended but I said "No.....our goal for Emily is already that she will grow and learn and will be able to decide for herself about whether to be a Christian or not. I hope and pray she will be accountable for herself in that way"! Although, Emily will not likely understand every part of the Bible......I have NO doubt she will soon understand the most important aspects and will decide on her own to be baptised. I agree with you on waiting for your kids to decide this on their own.
I know this is hard, but if you simply never go to that church again....this man will never have the opportunity to learn about how much people with Ds are capable of learning and doing. If you can, I would talk to him privately.......make sure he knows that you want more than anything for your daughter to be fully accepted and loved by her church home, and that you want his help to teach her the basics that she will need to know before she chooses to be baptised. After you talk to him, feel free to choose to leave that congregation if you feel strongly about it....but at least one person will have learned a bit more about Ds. That's just my suggestion.

I wish Kaylee's mom would post!! Kaylee is younger than my daughter, and already has a GREAT understanding of salvation!!! Her story gave me chills.

I also wish your minister could hear my Emily pray.......She absolutely insists on praying for each meal, and is SO thankful for everything she has. She mentions every family member and friend and each food item, and anyone she knows who is sick....I believe God looks forward to her prayers!!

Susan

[Chris]

Personally, I would find a church that has a better understanding of salvation.

For it is by GRACE you have been saved, THOUGH FAITH and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

I am sure there are many parents that can tell stories about the faith their kids with Ds demonstrate. We pray with our kids everyday and teach them about Jesus. Sarah is only two but she knows to fold her hands and wait to pray to Jesus before we eat. Praying may not really have any meaning for her now but I don't know for sure. I believe that God reveals Himself to everyone in some way.

There isn't a perfect church but I would find one that values all people. Sarah is the princess at our church. Our church family give Sarah lots of love and attention. The more interaction people have with her, the more they understand that she is capable of what most other kids do, it just takes her longer. I know I am rambling but it warms my heart to see how the people in our church are proud of Sarah. They are thrilled to see her walking and climbing up the steps.

One book that has simplified the bible for me is called Classic Christianity by Bob George.

Chris

[momofrussell]

Well, even though I was babtised at birth through my dad's catholic up bringing, I was raised in a non-denominational Christian setting. (my mom and dad divorced when I was two and my mom is not Catholic) In Calif I mostly went to Calvary Chapels as an adult where we too learned that children are not accountable until around 13 when they can make their own decisions and can be baptised. And, from what I have learned from church and the bible, I thought God would be accountable for those who can't be for themselves.. am I wrong to think that? Maybe I am off base, but IF you child NEVER has the frame of mind to make decisions for him/herself, I don't think God would cast your child aside. JMO!

Personally, from your post, it really does sound like this isn't the church for you. Having children the same age as your children was the only positive thing I really read out of your post and that is not a basis for picking a chuch... JMO again. I believe that even though the Pastor THOUGHT he was looking out for the best wishes of your children, he was out of line a bit.

If it were me, I would sit down with the pastor (after getting some scripture out of the bible for amunition LOL) and ASK what he and the Church subscribe/believe in. I also would sit down and ask the pastor what he really meant by the comments. Maybe he interprets and believes something different than you do with God. Maybe you can resolve the questions or accept it and find another church.

I say this because after moving a couple times, we now reside in MO. I go online to the non-denominational churches I find in our area and READ just WHAT they believe in.. ESPECIALLY the Baptism part. Because , I am like you, I want MY children to make that decision. My daughter is 11 now and has wanted to be baptised since we lived in CA a few years ago but wanted her to be baptised in the right frame of mind, AND in a church we were going to. We were moving so I thought it was best we waited. I wouldn't baptise OR attend a church where the pastor and I didn't agree on fundamental things.

And, keep in mind, you are also attending and teaching at a church where other members have commented on your decision to GIVE BIRTH... I thought that was why God made us!!! I have never read in the bible that we were not alloud or considered SELFISH in God's eyes if we DID have another child after our child w/disabilities. Your church needs some guidance and acceptance schooling... they OBVIOUSLY don't read the bible that close. THAT, I wouldn't stand for.

When I was younger, I attended a church where my ex boyfriend also attended. I started dating a guy who attended church but not that often and was JUDGED by other members about that and other things... so, I was judged also. I stopped going for a while and let my ex (who was still friends with me) know that it wasn't cool. He told me that after a few months or so, he realized that even though I was dating or hanging out with this person, I WASN"T making the wrong decisions, and it was wrong for him and others to judge us. He also said the church had a BIG TIME LESSON on judging and it changed their frame of mind... so I was just a catalyst in faith, in my book.

So, maybe you are too. Maybe God planted you there to let OTHERS learn the right way... or a better way... maybe that is all you are there for. You won't know right now... but you will sooner or later, one way or another.

I'd speak up and clear up and then move on if needed! Look online for another church if needed!!!

Good luck!!!

A.

[Kristen]

Just my two cents, but who could understand God better than an innocent angel sent to teach love? Might want to ask him that.

[cindylou]

Kim- I can understand everyones viewpoint. I don't understand a pastor pressuring a mother to have her SMALL children baptized -- unless it is a reformed presbyterian-which my sister is-and believes in infant baptism. I believe a child should be old enough to articulate well what the reason for baptism is--and I have no doubt that most children I know with DS can state that reason--simply, baptism is a COMMAND by Jesus and doing so is obeying him. A public display of an inward committment to Jesus. So, I think it's weird that a pastor is pressuring you anyways- (My dad is a pastor, my husband used to be a pastor and we both met in Bible college)

Secondly-I have never pressured Kaylee to pray the sinners prayer. Her little sis did when she was 5--because she overheard a conversation I was having with my SIL-who had FINALLY decided to not date Non-Christian men anymore. I started crying, because I was so happy and Emma asked what was wrong. I told her-and then she said "Mom, whats a Christian?" Someone who believes that Jesus Christ is God's son and understands that he died on the cross for their sins and wants to live for Him." Well, I believe that mom...can I be a Christian? so we knelt and prayed. It was the sweetest thing. Kaylee wasn't home at the time so we told her when she came home and she was not impressed (she was 7 at the time..) It just was no big deal to her. We would talk about it every once in a while and she would actually say "NO" when asked if she wanted to ask Jesus to be her savior. Then one day we were driving to my parents out in the country and talking about heaven..and Emma started talking about when she asked Jesus into her heart. Kaylee said "I pray too-Jesus..in my heart..." or something like that - so I asked her if she wanted to pray..she said yes...I asked her why she needed Jesus and she said "sins away". So we prayed. I was thrilled, to say the least---she told my parents when we arrived--and I wondered if she really 'got it'...MONTHS later we were again driving to my parents and we got to the turn in the road where we had pulled over and prayed last time and I asked Kaylee if she remembered what we did in that spot before and she said "I prayed to jesus-my heart.." so - I think she 'got it'.... ;D

at our church you actually have to verbally speak into a microphone just prior to your baptism and tell 1. that you have become a Christian and 2. why you are getting baptized. I think for Kaylee, it will be awhile before she can or wants to do this in front of an audience...I have no idea what reaction I will get from the pastoral staff--but she's been taking communion and no ones freaking out over it!!

[momofrussell]

Wonderful Story Cindylou!!!

a.

[christie]

WOW CINDY, how cool is that ;D

Thanks for sharing, I really enjoyed your post

CC