|
|
Post by Jessie on Apr 10, 2006 13:28:31 GMT -5
How's that for a subject?! Anyway, hopefully I can get across what I want to clearly here. Jason is 13. Cognitively he is not. Where he is at, according to testing a couple of years ago is scattered and not anywhere near 13. I believe since that testing (and of course there's issues with the testing itself) he has improved dramatically in some areas. With the "scattered" results, I guess I would take a stab and say he is on the average at about a cognitive level of a 6-8 year old. That's just a guess on my part. So . . . should we treat him / have expectations of him the same as a TYPICAL 6-8 year old?  ?? Or, is it 6-8 year old with a cognitive disability? KWIM? Personally, and this is where my parenting philosophy comes into play, is that he should be expected to act like a 6-8 year old in most situations. I guess lately I feel like we are accommodating some bad behavior thinking that we are accommodating his Ds. Does that make sense? To me, making accommodations for Ds is having him in a Spec Ed program, providing him with any therapies he needs, being more patient with instructions and waiting for the results, waiting in general  , and of course all areas academically. What I personally DON'T think we should be accommodating is that he sometimes will throw temper tantrums or that he loves to tell his dad "NO" all the time. I'm thinking that if he were a typical 6-8 year old child, we would NOT tolerate him telling us no. So . . . that goes back to - should we allow things like that because of his Ds - or are we truly accommodating bad behavior? In some areas he is so ahead of things, but in other areas he is still really lacking and I'm getting this icky feeling that it's our fault for allowing some behaviors to continue. I'm very worried that if he is allowed to continue with some things, then when Ellie gets old enough and wants to tell us no all the time, how do we explain that it's ok for brother to do that but not her? I know if MB were here (which, by they way, where the heck is she?!), she would tell me it's behavior that needs to be modified! But, I would be interested to hear how you guys handle the chronological age vs. cognitive age thing as related to BEHAVIOR. Thanks!!!! Jessie |
|
|
|
Post by Connie on Apr 10, 2006 14:24:12 GMT -5
Jessie,
I went to a DS meeting in Indianapolis about 2 years ago. I heard a wonderful woman speak about her son who was 14 (I think). She told wonderful stories. The one thing I took from this is she treated her son age appropriately.
She made him play with toys that were age appropriate...didn't deny him the joy of younger toys (if they were around) just replaced the ones at home with ones more age appropriate.
She made him watch shows that "normal" kids watch....a 14 year old doesn't watch Barney...
She did a lot of things like this. She talk about expectations...with understanding. If we don't expect this of them how will they ever learn.
I don't always succed but I do try to expect Collin to do age appropriate things...Now he 6 but he still loves DORA and DEIGO and I do let him watch them because he has a sister that is only 4. But, he loves to watch Cody and Zach, Sponge Bob, Fairly Odd Parent etc....
We had been working on this for about 2 months or so at church (not consistantly...because we missed a few weeks here and there). I felt Collin should be able to go to the bathroom by himself after all he's 6 and most 6 y.o. do this. I started out by letting him go by himself, I would watch him go in, wait a few moments then go stand by the door. If, I would peak in to check on him he would tell me WEEV. Well, this week he told me..."Potty...OU STAY!!" Which was really neat because the lady sitting beside me actually understood what he said. Well, He went and at the time I should I gotten up and left to check on him the pastor started to pray so I could not leave. Talk about being a bit nervous (good thing I was praying)...But he did it all by himself and the best part of it was he came back to ME without any detours or other stops!!!! Who would have thought!!
He did 2-3 other amazing things that day at church for me...it was a good day!!!
I guess what I am rambling about is I believe you need to treat him age appropriately and expect these things out of him. You may not always succed but you've got to start some where.
Connie
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Apr 10, 2006 15:48:12 GMT -5
Jessie,
To be perfectly honest, I don't know!!! Like you said, most of our kids are "scattered". They may excel in some areas and lag in others. It does seem that they all excel in the manipulating parents department!
Actually, I have been thinking about this a lot lately. I wonder if letting Sarah sleep in a crib, ride in a stroller and wear diapers is causing her to continue some baby behaviors like throwing toys, waking in the middle of the night and throwing poop. She will be five in September and my goal for the summer is to get her into a twin bed and using the potty. My biggest challenge will be to get my husband on the same page.
I think those of us who have had to deal with our children being medically fragile at some point in their lives have a harder time treating them in an age appropriate manner. It is a parent problem not a problem with the child. I know that Sarah has better behavior at school than she does at home but most kids do.
I am not a tough disciplinarian. I would love to be like MB but the fact is that I'm not. My older daughter was a very hyper child and had difficulty following my instructions but at 15 she is a great and obedient kid. I never have allowed her to be disrespectful which means no talking back, rolling eyes, huffing and puffing, stomping off or slamming doors. Even Sarah understands when I am being serious and will change her attitude. Tantrums should end with toddlerhood.
I know it is much more difficult for those of us who have had our kids since birth to see them as they truly are. It is easier for us to make excuses for them. You are going to have to gently prod your husband into becoming less tolerant when Jason is talking back or throwing a tantrum. You are right, you don't want Jason to teach Ellie those negative behaviors.
Chris
|
|
|
|
Post by momofrussell on Apr 10, 2006 16:36:57 GMT -5
Good question! I have to say.. my answer is based on Russell.. and he does NOT have scattered skills... he is very much globally delayed. I think if Russell JUST had DS and was alot farther then he is.. for an 8 yr old.. I could answer that a little of both would be appropriate... meaning.... I'd try to discipline and modify his behavior for where he was cognitively and also try to also treat him like he was 8 when ever possible. But... that is not the case.. nor is it possible. I totally understand what Connie is saying.. and where you are all coming from... I am not there with Russell. Due to his global delays and the Autism, he is treated where he is developmentally.. and we hope and push for that next level. I am cut and dry with parenting by nature... Kevin and I do with Russell as we would with Reece and Regan when they were where he is. I think you answered your own question actually Treat him like he is just a 6-8 yr old and try to NOT focus on the DS... but focus on the behavior whenever possible. I think that sounds reasonable to me. The key to ANYTHING... is consistancy... (this is where MB comes in LOL). So.... you need to figure out what you don't and do want him to do... and if you have to adjust for his cogn age.. then adjust and set out to modify the behavior. Yes... modifying the behavior is part of it... but you have to make sure the child is understanding you also I am sure Jason will "get" what you are trying to have him do and not do He just may not like it! LOL To be honest... I have a 13 yr old and she is socially VERY immature... and the docs have told us that on one hand.. she needs to act appropriately...but she acts VERY immature and it's tough!!!! A. |
|
|
|
Post by rickismom on Apr 10, 2006 17:09:46 GMT -5
I think that you must realize and treat him in many ways like a 13 year old! Because EMOTIONALLY and seually, that is where he is! He is not a 6 or 8 year old, but a 13 year-old with a disability. Obviously you have to make allowances in studies due to the DS. In other spheres, try as much as possible to treat him in age-appropriate ways.
|
|
|
|
Post by kellyds on Apr 10, 2006 17:10:26 GMT -5
I don't know, but I've wondered about this myself, so I'll be interested in everyone's opinions. So far, Joshua is 15 months old but behaves more like a six-month-old, and we definitely treat him like a six-month-old. Hmmmmm . . .
|
|
|
|
Post by hidyperson on Apr 10, 2006 17:37:07 GMT -5
Our roommate who is 36 is really 3. Tantrums, selfishness, all that, but she's been around for 36 years. We try and remind her she's and adult, and expect her to behave like one, but isn't one. If your son behaves 6-8, I'd say you're right, have those exceptations, as you said of a regular 8 year old. If you don't he'll be a joy as adult...
From my experiance, I can't expect 36 year old behaviour from my roommate. What I have is a 36 year old 3 year old which is not something most of us are generally experianced with, but she's taught us about herself over time - Jeff
|
|
|
|
Post by CC on Apr 10, 2006 22:32:56 GMT -5
Hmmm I think all kids are different and you have to deal with each on an individual basis. Like say Chris did something not acceptable he will be punished, and if Kodi had done something say when she was 13 the age Chris is now that was also not acceptable, she would be punished. Yes the punishment may be different BUT there was a punishment for both, and thats what matters, least to me. So although Chris is 13, he too is scattered all over the map with his abilities and yes there are times we can treat him as a 13 year old but more then not we go with what level he is at in the particular situation. Hmmm hope that made sense CC ~ |
|
|
|
Post by momofrussell on Apr 10, 2006 23:41:13 GMT -5
Made alot of sense CC. And thanks everyone for their response.. I was thinking alot about this question after I posted and was going to my workshop. I feel that ultimately.. this is such a subjective questions... things like "what works for your family may not work in ours" and just exactly what all your child "has" as far as abilties, disabilites, ect..and what your expectations are... behaviors that really need to be nipped.... So... with all of that.... I don't know if there IS one answer.... Not that Jessie was looking for just ONE answer... (or maybe she was LMAO) But.... I think if I look at Russell being 8 and then say a couple of your kids at 8... we'd probably agree that there are certain behaviors we all would NOT go for and allow... but how we attain those goals.. and treat our children.. might all be different based on just what "level" our child is at.... the approach, ect... But it's been having me ponder alot earlier.. thanks for the deep thoughts! LOL A. |
|
|
|
Post by Jessie on Apr 11, 2006 6:35:00 GMT -5
Thanks for everyone's responses. I don't know what I was looking for . . . maybe validation for the way that I see things! LOL Huh, maybe I was trying to provoke MB to come out of hiding . . . In my heart I feel like what Jason needs is to be treated as a 13 year old . . . with the obvious exceptions. I've been thinking, how long can this go on that he gets mad when Ellie cries, that he tells us (mostly his dad) no all the time, that depending on who we are with or visiting, he throws a temper tantrum and doesn't want to leave? He truly has come so far in the last few years, but it's these behaviors that wear me down! I have a huge issue with accommodating behavior like this. But, my real struggle comes in to play because I really don't know enough about development for people with Ds and what is normal, acceptable, etc. That's why I need you guys! I usually end up second-guessing myself because I wonder if he was my birth child - would I feel differently about the fact that I feel he needs to be pushed to get to the next level, would I have such high expectations of him then? Especially when I sense any hesitation on Brian's part to push Jason, but I think that he just has that "momma bear" instinct (LOL ) when it comes to Jason. And, I have to remember that for the first 9 years of his life, all Brian ever heard from Jason's mother was that he can't do this, he will never do that, etc. The expectations were extremely low. Jeff - funny that you said what you did. My sister has said to me for the last couple of years, don't worry he will grow out of it, you don't see 40-year old people with Ds being chased after or throwing a temper tantrum in public. But, based on what you said about your roommate, there is that possibility that he won't simply grow out of it.  The temper tantrums have to stop and the sassing back has to stop (yes, even though he does not speak intelligibly we know he is sassing back!). It's simply not acceptable at any age . . . when Ellie is old enough to start doing things like this, she will immediately be taught not to, so there's really no excuse for this behavior to continue with The Boy! Thanks again, I appreciate your responses and you letting me vent a little! Jessie P.S. Just to be clear, I don't blame Jason for his behavior, this is a parenting issue for me and Brian . . . I don't want anyone to think I'm upset with Jason, he's just getting away with what we are letting him get away with! |
|
|
|
Post by hidyperson on Apr 11, 2006 7:58:03 GMT -5
Jessie - she doesn't do it out of house, she saves it for our down time at home You really can take her anywhere. She behaves like an adult with DS outside the home. At home she thinks she lives in a hotel. The day team are quite aware of this and report that they here of this kind of split all the time. She does blow out and 'do the stubborn', usually over little things. We've learned that you can't sway sway her with logic, just that this unaccepable and it has to stop NOW. This generally works, but like with anyone upset, does need a bit of a cool down time. Of course, on a similar bend, if she doesn't get something she wants from one of us, she goes to the other ! I guess that makes almost family !! PS - don't cut Jason too much slack, he's the one doing the thing. I'm sure he'll take every foot of rope he can. But you're right, it does fall to you to change the behaviour. That is one thing that is hard with an adult with DS, she takes no responsablity for her behaviour in anyway, we have to do all the work. Sometimes she'll say, " that's better, I'm happy now" and we're still foaming at the mouth thinking " did that have to be so hard ? " - Jeff |
|
|
|
Post by momofrussell on Apr 11, 2006 8:46:50 GMT -5
YES Jessie... DS or not... this is not acceptable in our home. I have 3 kids and even with Russell being SO delayed and having all his issues... you don't sass and throw tantrums in my house and get far LOL. But that goes to parenting in general. If you don't want sassers and rude kids... you teach them If Brian needs a push... then you are the girl to do it I think once he realises too that it's not acceptable for Ellie to do it... then it's not acceptable for Jason to do it. It's like some "golden" rule LOL.. you just can't be rude in my house kinda thing. That's how it is here A. |
|
|
|
Post by CC on Apr 11, 2006 11:10:06 GMT -5
Jessie, K, maybe I didn't get what you were first asking bout. Yes, NO child DS or not should be allowed to just have a fit or be rude or what ever and not have a consequence to pay. What I was saying is that with Chris his consequence may not be what one would do with a typical 13 years old, KWIM But we do what works for him and that's all that matters, least in my thinking. Example ~ If Chris decides he is not ready to leave say, we just do the Slowly count to 3 and by 2 and lots of time even by 1, he is up and moving with no issues. Not sure what I will do if he makes get to three, LOLOL But my whole point is for now that works for Chris and HONESTLY once we started this his agreeing to leave a place has gotten easier and easier. But what I was trying to say is see I would never when Kodi was 13 do that technique with her maybe when she was 5, KWIM. I do believe consistency and maturity play a BIG role. Colin too is a softy I will admit, probably why the two are the BEST of Pals. Colin and I have disagreed on what I find appropriate and what he feels is appropriate, hence where the consistency has failed till I can make Colin see my way LOLOL Just a thought here but I think if you find what works for Jason with behavior management at home is the key and it may or may not be age appropriate, as long as it works that's the payoff, least in my mind. One thing Colin and I try very hard to do is if we disagree on something bout the kids we stand behind the other as parents on what they decided and discuss in private later how it might have worked better for the next time it comes up. Kids are sooo smart and know how to play one parent against the other especially if one is lots more of a softy. Chris would do that all the time if we let him, KWIM BTW just a thought Chris is a big one for saying NO to just bout all things, one thing for us that has helped is to try and word things differently so NO is not really an option. Like instead of saying get your shoes on I might say K, which pair today your sneakers or work boots. Behaviors I will admit have always been a challenge with Chris and I am always switching around techniques to fit the crime KWIM. Best of Luck girl CC ~ |
|
|
|
Post by Jessie on Apr 11, 2006 11:22:01 GMT -5
CC - one of the things that we have a tough time with is finding the right punishment for the crime, factoring in what he did, when he did it, did he know right from wrong, what's appropriate, etc. . . I think we will try the counting strategy and see how that goes for us.
Side funny story here: last year we were camping and we hear this mom yelling at her kid. She said "Don't make me count to 5!" We all looked at each other like FIVE? Hello, three's the magic number! It just struck us all so funny at that moment. ;D
Anyway, even though Brian is the big softy, we do not contradict each other in front of Jason, we believe in that same philosophy so we are good in that way. I think we just need to discuss and determine how we are going to handle certain situations when they come up and that we are going to handle them the same way all the time to get that consistency.
Jessie
|
|
|
|
Post by cindylou on Apr 12, 2006 15:34:53 GMT -5
OK guys and gals---I have to weigh in here (well, not literally- ;D)
I think something that always needs to be considered is the speech abilities/as well as communication abilities and here's my arguement:
(First off--we have this issues quite often--but it is also typical 12 year old attitude-according to many of the moms of Kaylee's "typical" peers)
I truly think that we react so strongly because Kaylee (and possibly your children) respond so directly, many times negatively, to instruction from a parent. Hear me out here though-
My 10 year old Emma, when given instruction, will not yell "NO, You're not the boss of me!" but she will very calmly say--"Hey mom, I don't want to do my spelling before my violin practice because I pretty much know all my spelling words and I really need to work on violin." or--"would it be okay if I went outside to shoot hoops for 30 minutes before I do my homework?" Well, that is because Emma can speak clearly, and knows how to negotiate. Kaylee, on the other hand--has 'efficient' speech in that she leaves out all the connecting words and gets right to the point--(because often she is not understood). Would she love to be able to give all her justifications? Definately! Would other 12/13 year olds justify their reason and attempt to dictate (at least to a certain degree) the thing that they wanted to do next in the day? Yes. Do we treat Kaylee different then other typical kids? Yes-we order her around. I don't order Emma around-I ask her 1. Where in the process of getting ready for school she is. Has she brushed her teeth? Does she have her back pack ready? I am much more respectful to her as a person. I have had to step back this year and look at why Kaylee responds the way she does and what responsibility I hold in that.
I do not agree with her attitude, nor to I accept it--but I do recognize that it is her attempt to communicate in the most efficient way-that she wants respect and the ability to make her own decisions. If she goes to school without her hair brushed or her teeth and doesn't eat breakfast--I have to remember that most Junior High age students make their own decisions about whether or not their going to eat or brush or get to school on time. A lot of them don't do any of the above--and suffer the consequences. Am I allowing Kaylee to suffer the consequences? Get tardy slips--look sloppy? Miss success recess because she didn't bring her homework slip for me to fill out? etc?
Just some thoughts. We're big into attitude at our house--so this has been a difficult year to say the least--she started her period last march and she's become quite moody during her "time" - and she is very determined to be in control of her time and wearing what she wants-eating or not eating breakfast etc. It's all been quite a challange--and I have analyzed it a lot to see if we're bossing her too much. I think we should all look at how we interact with our kids as compared to typical kids or sibs of the same age. It's very interesting....
|
|
?? Or, is it 6-8 year old with a cognitive disability? KWIM?
, and of course all areas academically. What I personally DON'T think we should be accommodating is that he sometimes will throw temper tantrums or that he loves to tell his dad "NO" all the time. I'm thinking that if he were a typical 6-8 year old child, we would NOT tolerate him telling us no. So . . . that goes back to - should we allow things like that because of his Ds - or are we truly accommodating bad behavior? In some areas he is so ahead of things, but in other areas he is still really lacking and I'm getting this icky feeling that it's our fault for allowing some behaviors to continue.
&&Mommy to Griffin (96), Gray (97) Collin (00) enhanced and Lauren (02) the little princess.
